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Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    Votes: 40 62.5%

  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    Votes: 14 21.9%

  • It depends on November.

    Votes: 10 15.6%
  • Total voters
    64
cpwill said:
:shrug: I believe that the country benefits from Conservative governance. Ergo, all citizens should be forced to donate money to conservative candidates for political office. Yes?
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strike one....bad analogy
 
cpwill said:
You realize that is also an argument for allowing employers to ban unions? If the workers do not like the conditions of their employment... they always have a choice to go elsewhere.
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mmmmm no it is not.....strike two
 
cpwill said:
Lately we have seen Republican and Democrat (though, oddly, only Republicans make news with it) Governors work to save their states from fiscal ruin by curtailing the Public Unions, either in finances or in power. Have the last two years marked the beginning of the end for the Public Sector Union, and will they go the way of the Private Sector Union?
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I have never seen a legitimate argument for public service unions. even FDR opposed them
 
randel said:
you are free to work anywhere you wish....if you don't like the terms of that employment, no one is forcing you to take a job...move on to the next one.
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people should have the right to unionize in private sectors. The owner of business should have the absolute right to fire anyone who belongs to a union though. The government should play no role in protecting one from the other
 
jet57 said:
Not the end of any union in this country. What I think has happened is that the fuse has been lit. "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

It's just a matter of time now.
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Public sector unions will be around a while because they are organs of the dem party and its hard to outsource stuff like AFSCME bureaucrats. HOwever, manufacturing unions and some service unions are doomed by global markets. the most legitimate and useful unions-trade unions that teach a trade-are waning while the least legitimate and most malignant unions-public sector unions are growing. No wonder we are screwed
 
Public Unions will always exist, but this is the beginning and continuation of curtailing their excessive power. They had their time when they were needed, now they are too bloated and must be cut back.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
They should be forced if they will in anyway benefit from something a union negotiates.
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Even the Roman Catholic church doesn't make kids join the faith to attend parochial schools. This has to be the moronic post of the month.
 
lpast said:
Yeah your right the entire federal deficit and all the states woes are ALL the fault of public sector unions....CPwill heres the TRUTH the rich have raped public sector workers and put it all right in their pocket....the rich literally HATE that they cant control public worker unions and steal from them...so they started this class warfare between public and private sector workers...and in the end the private sector workers are going to get even Less then they are now...MORONS...they will wake up but it will be too late for them, they will have been stripped of everything especially their dignity.
All the proof of that is right in front of t heir eyes...they'd just rather believe koch Brother super pac attack ads...
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what oozing idiocy. How do the rich RAPE unions that work for the GOVERNMENT.
 
digsbe said:
Public Unions will always exist, but this is the beginning and continuation of curtailing their excessive power. They had their time when they were needed, now they are too bloated and must be cut back.
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how and when were PUBLIC sector unions ever needed?
 
TurtleDude said:
what oozing idiocy. How do the rich RAPE unions that work for the GOVERNMENT.
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That was a mistype it was supposed to be private sector workers...and if you think public unions are dead...hang on to your scrotum and watch what happens in the next election cycle...there will be a working class revolt against the teatards....when reagan was prez the conservatives thou ght it was the end of the world for democrats and the working class...when obama got elected the progressives thought it was the end of the conservatives...the keyword in all that is THOUGHT...just like the teatards THINK the unions are dead....
 
TurtleDude said:
how and when were PUBLIC sector unions ever needed?
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Unions are a good way for employees to discuss issues with employers. I still think it's important to have employee organization to voice these concerns (A Union or smaller group).
 
digsbe said:
Public Unions will always exist, but this is the beginning and continuation of curtailing their excessive power. They had their time when they were needed, now they are too bloated and must be cut back.
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What problems did they solve before that no longer exist so that they are no longer needed?
 
ThePlayDrive said:
What problems did they solve before that no longer exist so that they are no longer needed?
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The better question is why are public sector unions needed in the first place?
 
cpwill said:
Lately we have seen Republican and Democrat (though, oddly, only Republicans make news with it) Governors work to save their states from fiscal ruin by curtailing the Public Unions, either in finances or in power. Have the last two years marked the beginning of the end for the Public Sector Union, and will they go the way of the Private Sector Union?
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Such things always go back and forth. As I've told you before with elections, be careful most when you win.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
No, it's really not a belief.
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Yes, it really is. And it's a foolish one, built around the notion that people do not have individual circumstances.

You don't seem to understand this basic concept, so let me try to explain it in a simpler way.

1. Union negotiates a deal so that every school has a security guard.
2. Every school has a security guard because of the union.
3. The union was able to negotiate that deal because of teachers who paid union dues.
4. Teachers who did not pay union dues benefit from the action of an organization they did not contribute to - they are free riders.
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except that:

5. Half of the schools in the district do not need security guards, and yet the teachers who work in those schools have their compensation reduced to pay for the guard that they do not need.


People are individuals, and circumstances vary. That is why socialization of compensation is typically not that great a bargain for many who are then told that they have to pay up "because they are benefiting." You are confusing your beliefs with facts. A Closed Shop is basically the union telling the workers that they must each subordinate their preferences, needs, and desires to that of the collective, as expressed by the Union.
 
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lpast said:
That was a mistype it was supposed to be private sector workers...and if you think public unions are dead...hang on to your scrotum and watch what happens in the next election cycle...there will be a working class revolt against the teatards....when reagan was prez the conservatives thou ght it was the end of the world for democrats and the working class...when obama got elected the progressives thought it was the end of the conservatives...the keyword in all that is THOUGHT...just like the teatards THINK the unions are dead....
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you didn't read my posts very well. I said the Public sector unions will be hard to get rid of because they are a wing of the dem party. Private sector unions have some uses but the government shouldn't protect them. But in some cases I'd rather deal with a union-the proud craft unions tend to guarantee the work and have pride in their trade. You often get a better deal with union carpenters, IBEW, pipe fitters etc.

I want your revolt though.

And your stupid rants about the tea party are idiotic-the tea party has no position on private sector unions
 
TurtleDude said:
people should have the right to unionize in private sectors. The owner of business should have the absolute right to fire anyone who belongs to a union though. The government should play no role in protecting one from the other
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it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right , so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
 
cpwill said:
that doesn't connect. If you are arguing that the reason for coercion is that non-unionized employees will benefit from unionized employees, then you are arguing that benefits flowing from actions that others take with or without their will can be charged to their account.
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Uh, I a arguing that if your requirement for donating to conservative casues were democratically decided, the you'd be right: but - so much for a qulitative quip: it did connect.

Now I'm going to try and untangle your response: first, your desciption of coercion is purely the use of subjectivity. Nonunion employees generally do benefit from union employees because said contracts set standards that keep wages and benefits cometitive in work places. Now, if one wishes to work in a closed shop, then one must voluntarily submit to the requirement of union membership, thereby instantly setting oneself in line for the benefits that come with such memebership.

So, other than that, I don't any idea what point you're trying to make.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
What problems did they solve before that no longer exist so that they are no longer needed?
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Helping ensure safe worker environments mainly. Now they are too large, demand too many benefits, and wast tax payer money while restricting worker freedom (especially in non-right to work states). I think they also cause government to run inefficiently and keep crappy employees employed on the government's dime.
 
randel said:
it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right , so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
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The one party that has the absolute right to hire you, possesses the absolute right to fire you as well. You work at the pleasure of the employer.
 
digsbe said:
Unions are a good way for employees to discuss issues with employers. I still think it's important to have employee organization to voice these concerns (A Union or smaller group).
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well in the postal service you have the national alliance which is not a union. and supervisors have NAPS-National Association of Postal Supervisors who can represent EAS 15 or higher (I believe) employees who are too high to be in the APWU or the Mail handlers etc unions. Assistant United States Attorneys have NAAUSA
none of those are bargaining units but they do what you want in public sector employment.

the problem with Pub Sect unions is that the bargaining is not in good faith because the union is often bargaining with people they helped elect or with people who are subordinate to the people they helped elect and the taxpayers often do not have representation at the table.

in the private sector management represents the owners-unions represents the workers and if management gives too cozy a deal the owners are going to fire them. If the union gets too good a deal they lose their jobs

if a public sector union gets too good a deal the taxpayers are forced to foot the bill-public sector unions cannot kill the host like greedy private sector unions can
 
randel said:
it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right
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How does firing someone force them to quit a union? That strikes me as something that is up to the Union itself, whether or not they make current employment a condition for membership.

so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
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Absolutely he should. Just as non-government workers should have the right to go on strike.

That's the beauty of the free market. If the workers are right and they are being undervalued, then the employer will be unable to find people willing to perform the labor for the compensation package he offers, and he will be forced to capitulate or go under. If the business owner is right, and he is properly valuing the workers, then he will be able to replace them, and the union will fail.
 
randel said:
it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right , so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
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if every available laborer joins the union than the union will be able to get its terms. If the company can hire enough workers who aren't in the union should lose. that's the way it should be. and yes, I should have the absolute right to fire you for being in a union.
 
TurtleDude said:
Public sector unions will be around a while because they are organs of the dem party and its hard to outsource stuff like AFSCME bureaucrats. HOwever, manufacturing unions and some service unions are doomed by global markets. the most legitimate and useful unions-trade unions that teach a trade-are waning while the least legitimate and most malignant unions-public sector unions are growing. No wonder we are screwed
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Well, according to hte new montra of "Build and Buy American", your dire prediction is what is doomed. As for Public employee Unions; well, we'll habe to wait and see. JFK entered thier roght to organize into law, so said law is going to have to overturned first, and that is not likely.

Historically, nonunion beliefs in this country had worked themselves into such a zenith that both the military and police were showing up to picket lines, rifles in hand, and opening fire on strikers; that didn't last.

These times in AMerican hisotry have ebbs and flows: this way and that way. We're just getting into this for real now.
 
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