View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #971
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    cpwill asks me this question



    We have discussed this recently in the thread on the topic of union members not siging up for dues payments. I stated there and I will state here again that if you or anyone else interprets that as a sign that they do not want a union or they do not want union protections or they do not want the union to negotitate a contract - that is a wrong interpretation of what is going on here.

    It comes down to one thing as most things do in life and that one thing is MONEY. When the right wing Repubicans passed laws to penalize and weaken unions by refusing to allow employers to collect the dues to the union, we know that some workers will see only the opportunity for a short term gain in keeping those dues for themselves and will decide to stop paying them. Many do so because of selfishness. Others do it because they fail to see the long term effects. Still others expect to have their cake and eat it too hoping that while they will keep their dues, other workers will pay and thus their own ass will be well protected by the majority.

    So I do not interpret this as a sign that 2 out of 3 are opting out of the union. I see this for what it is.

    As far as your claim that the limitations on unions is coming from both parties, I differ with that claim also. Yes, some democrats have joined in. But this is largely a GOP effort spurred on by their right wing. In my State of Michigan, no Democrat in the legislature has signed on these sort of extreme bills promoting things like right to work. Yes, a tiny number of Democrats have voted for laws here which unions lobbied and worked against - but they are a minority in the party and do not represent the dominant thinking of the majority. The vast majority of the Democrtic Party is supportive of labor and labor rights. Wisconsin demonstrat4es this reality also.

    So I beleive your question to me is based on two equally false premises.

    Having said that, I have no actual idea as to pubic employee unions getting stronger or weaker in the short run. We know there is a war on and I have no idea how it is going to turn out. Perhaps unions need to be kicked a bit to motivate and arouse apathetic members who have no memory or knowledge of why it is so important to have a union in the first place? Perhaps the union needs to do more education of its own members?

    I also think that the right wing efforts against unions may bear soem fruit in the short run but in the long run will only spur unions to work harder, organize and recruit more, and dig their collective heels in deeper. And that would be a good thing.

    As to economic forces, lots of Americans are not on board with globalization and the attendant sacrifices it means for them. Lots of people are simply not willing to allow unskilled workers in Asia to dictate what they will get paid here. They are not going to take this indefinetely and there will be push back as the pendulum swings too far to the right. It always does swing back. That will result in political action and perhaps we will do something extremely radical and far out like actually insist that we follow the Constitution and exercise the powers the Founders gave us to protect American markets and jobs. We will see.

    In short, I think the right is riding high right now at this point in time. And I think the pendulum has swung nearly as far as its going to swing to the right. For you or anyone else to misinterpret this only does America a great disservice.
    It's all about money. The big money of the Republican party hates Unions because it means less money for them.

    The paradox is that many of these companies also support Democratic candidates, who are more pro-Union. You've gotta wonder if they're just playing us with fake issues so nobody notices what's going on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  2. #972
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's important because that is what you are sure to get in the open market. Those most likley to suffer will be the most needy among us. This will widen the gap even more.
    Says??

    Actually, considering what they have to contend with in parents and conservative, they do a better job by far than the low end will get in the market.

    Parents? Ok. Conservative? Ah..what? As for the rest that is an assumption.

    Competition will improve some areas, but too often the competition is for profit and not quality. This is important.
    It sure it is. It will drive educational levels.

    Only those who can afford first class will see any improvement, though very little as most of them already have first class. The rest will get cheapened scaled down versious, and will be very hit and miss, largely miss.
    That is you saying that.

    BTW, not sure where you got hiding. I merely figure you don't see the point.
    Lets be clear this new line of discussion is so that you can avoid the question I put out from the start. "How does have a degree in whatever field mean a certain wage is deserved and anything else is unacceptable?" This discussion of a private school system in which I believe in has nothing to do with that question.

    Sure it does. Have you seen what doctors go through?

    ANd it ahppens all the time in nearly all professions. Sure, some have to get some practical experience behind them, but take a nurse, a four year nurse 5 years down the road will be twice the nurse of the 2 year grade. the 2 year grade knows the practical, start the IV, whatever skill, the four year knows why and what to look for much better. Those years taught her things that gave her a better foundation.
    How exactly does that show a mastery of the field?

    And I don't know a doctor who relys on the internet. And I know some doctors. Not sure where your getting some of this silliness.
    Many younger doctors will use the Internet regularly when they see a patient. Ask people that go to the doctor all the time and they will testify to this.

  3. #973
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The ability of self-ownership is what the right to life is based on.


    what does that even mean.... "self ownership" ??????? Is that in the Constitution?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    what does that even mean.... "self ownership" ??????? Is that in the Constitution?
    Do you have the right to with you body as you see fit or not? Answer the question hay.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's not 100% correct as you mean it. If I've pledged my house as collateral on a loan, which is how 99.99% of mortgages work, then I do not have exclusive ownership of the property - the bank also has certain rights to it. There is no reason to believe that inventory works any differently. Contributing labor to production could just as easily attach rights to product/inventory.
    How in the hell is that comparable? The first is the same transaction and the later is creating a new transaction.

  6. #976
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Yes! unions are on the decline, and this will be accelerated when the conservatives win full control.....It would be interesting to know the stats in other nations as to unions and prosperity (for the middle class)....
    I am open as to whether or not unions are a necessity....
    At this point in time, I am prone to say yes....people just do not change that fast....

  7. #977
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun View Post
    Agreed. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" seem a higher priority.
    Pursuit of happiness is an interesting one. Mason meant to only include the whole range of legal protections that allow a free society to flourish that allow most importantly the means of acquiring and possessing property.

  8. #978
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you have the right to with you body as you see fit or not? Answer the question hay.
    NO. You do not.

    Now its your turn - is this self ownership in the Constitution?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    NO. You do not.

    Now its your turn - is this self ownership in the Constitution?
    Oh..so basically what you're saying is that that when you're created you don't have the right to do with your life whatever you want. So the American dream that you believe in is actually a farce. Its a bit funny watching you not realize the connections of things.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-13-12 at 01:38 PM.

  10. #980
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Oh..so basically what you're saying is that that when you're created you don't have the right to do with your life whatever you want. So the American dream that you believe in is actually a farce. Its a bit funny watching you not realize the connections of things.
    I gave you a straight and no nonsense answer to your question. Are you going to answer mine?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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