View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #961
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect - the lack of property rights is known as "anarchy", wherein the strong take from and occasionally enslave the weak.
    You really have no clue, do you?

    Try reading something of human history before the Agricultural Revolution - then we'll talk.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Nothing is "convenient" about our current fiscal mess. But I like how you pull one sentence out of an entire page, post it out of context, and then go off on a rant.

    I like also how you expect others to answer direct questions, but apparently lack the courage or forthrightness to do the same.

    Cute. So, pulling things out of context to launch ad hominems while lacking the moral or intellectual backbone to defend your own claims when asked to do so. I guess you really do work for a Democrat politician.
    Actually, I went for a walk with the wife, and realized, I prefer the response you gave. When the Iron Triangle of Democrat Politicians, Public Sector Unions, and Taxpayer money can no longer defend itself, and has the intellectual vacuity to launch ridiculous and blistering ad hominems which turn people off, that means that they are losing.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You really have no clue, do you?

    Try reading something of human history before the Agricultural Revolution - then we'll talk.
    I think it's funny that you talk about clue's and then reference an era of history about which you apparently hold some kind of ridiculous Rousseau-like fantasy. The history of mankinds' interactions up until the recognition of property rights is largely the story of the big kid on the playground beating up and taking the little kids' lunch money.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Property rights are rights. They are important rights. All rights people have are important rights. Property rights are not elevated above all else or at the expense of all else.
    That is incorrect - your ability to "own" things, and in particular your ownership of yourself is the foundation of every other right you possess.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Nothing is "convenient" about our current fiscal mess. But I like how you pull one sentence out of an entire page, post it out of context, and then go off on a rant.

    I like also how you expect others to answer direct questions, but apparently lack the courage or forthrightness to do the same.

    Cute. So, pulling things out of context to launch ad hominems while lacking the moral or intellectual backbone to defend your own claims when asked to do so. I guess you really do work for a Democrat politician.
    I get your 'context'.

    And I get your goals.

    And I get which side you are on.

    You come across loud and clear.

    I look at the views you push as no different than a rabble rouser standing outside myself giving directions to people to loot my house of everything I worked for simply because they do nto ant me to have it and they feel they need it more. I know how I would deal with such a person and I suspect you would deal with them exactly the same way.

    I told you in a post this morning that I would indeed answer your question in detai later today. And I intend to do that.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect - your ability to "own" things, and in particular your ownership of yourself is the foundation of every other right you possess.
    Perhaps you would be good enough to show us in the American legal system where property rights are elevated above and more important that any other rights?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    cpwill asks me this question

    Given that when offered the option, it seems that half to a majority of public union members prefer to opt out, and given that the movement to limit Public Unions is coming from both parties, how do you justify your vote that Public Unions will end up stronger? What social, political, or economic force do you see driving that result?
    We have discussed this recently in the thread on the topic of union members not siging up for dues payments. I stated there and I will state here again that if you or anyone else interprets that as a sign that they do not want a union or they do not want union protections or they do not want the union to negotitate a contract - that is a wrong interpretation of what is going on here.

    It comes down to one thing as most things do in life and that one thing is MONEY. When the right wing Repubicans passed laws to penalize and weaken unions by refusing to allow employers to collect the dues to the union, we know that some workers will see only the opportunity for a short term gain in keeping those dues for themselves and will decide to stop paying them. Many do so because of selfishness. Others do it because they fail to see the long term effects. Still others expect to have their cake and eat it too hoping that while they will keep their dues, other workers will pay and thus their own ass will be well protected by the majority.

    So I do not interpret this as a sign that 2 out of 3 are opting out of the union. I see this for what it is.

    As far as your claim that the limitations on unions is coming from both parties, I differ with that claim also. Yes, some democrats have joined in. But this is largely a GOP effort spurred on by their right wing. In my State of Michigan, no Democrat in the legislature has signed on these sort of extreme bills promoting things like right to work. Yes, a tiny number of Democrats have voted for laws here which unions lobbied and worked against - but they are a minority in the party and do not represent the dominant thinking of the majority. The vast majority of the Democrtic Party is supportive of labor and labor rights. Wisconsin demonstrat4es this reality also.

    So I beleive your question to me is based on two equally false premises.

    Having said that, I have no actual idea as to pubic employee unions getting stronger or weaker in the short run. We know there is a war on and I have no idea how it is going to turn out. Perhaps unions need to be kicked a bit to motivate and arouse apathetic members who have no memory or knowledge of why it is so important to have a union in the first place? Perhaps the union needs to do more education of its own members?

    I also think that the right wing efforts against unions may bear soem fruit in the short run but in the long run will only spur unions to work harder, organize and recruit more, and dig their collective heels in deeper. And that would be a good thing.

    As to economic forces, lots of Americans are not on board with globalization and the attendant sacrifices it means for them. Lots of people are simply not willing to allow unskilled workers in Asia to dictate what they will get paid here. They are not going to take this indefinetely and there will be push back as the pendulum swings too far to the right. It always does swing back. That will result in political action and perhaps we will do something extremely radical and far out like actually insist that we follow the Constitution and exercise the powers the Founders gave us to protect American markets and jobs. We will see.

    In short, I think the right is riding high right now at this point in time. And I think the pendulum has swung nearly as far as its going to swing to the right. For you or anyone else to misinterpret this only does America a great disservice.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I think it's funny that you talk about clue's and then reference an era of history about which you apparently hold some kind of ridiculous Rousseau-like fantasy. The history of mankinds' interactions up until the recognition of property rights is largely the story of the big kid on the playground beating up and taking the little kids' lunch money.
    LOL! Start here - but there's plenty more.
    Inaugural Article: The evolution of lethal intergroup violence

    The evolution of lethal intergroup violence thus encompasses three major periods: (i) the era of coalitionary killing, (ii) the era of intrinsic defensive advantage, and (iii) the era of war. An advance in weapons technology (the javelin-like throwing spear) engenders the first transition, whereas an advance in military organization and tactics produces the second.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I know what some lawyers might interpret it to mean, yes. But when a tribe left an area they didn't necessarily expect to move back to it in the future.
    When they left an area? What does that mean? You seem to not be aware that you either take claim to property or you don't.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps you would be good enough to show us in the American legal system where property rights are elevated above and more important that any other rights?
    The ability of self-ownership is what the right to life is based on.

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