View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #951
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you know what you bolded means? I don't think you do.
    I know what some lawyers might interpret it to mean, yes. But when a tribe left an area they didn't necessarily expect to move back to it in the future.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-13-12 at 07:53 AM.
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  2. #952
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I notice that you put the work ownership in quotes, and I wonder why.

    Under our legal system, the business is the exclusive owner of its inventory. Are you suggesting some change to this long-standing legal principle? If so, how would you like to see the ownership of the inventory divided up?
    That's not 100% correct as you mean it. If I've pledged my house as collateral on a loan, which is how 99.99% of mortgages work, then I do not have exclusive ownership of the property - the bank also has certain rights to it. There is no reason to believe that inventory works any differently. Contributing labor to production could just as easily attach rights to product/inventory.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  3. #953
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from cp will - his convenient excuse to ignore honoring pensions that workers earned over thirty or forty years of service



    There was no such thing ever done. Those contracts were negotiated by the parties involved - both of whom were the legal representatives with full power to do so - in complete good faith.

    You are making a completely irresponsible and unsubstantiated charge that covers a half decade or more of multiple contracts, negotiated by multiple persons. Making such a serious charge demands the highest level of evidence possible.

    You have presented none.

    This can only be viewed as a right wing attempt to screw workers out of their rightful benefits that they earned over decades of work for the people.

    It is sad that you would take such a position in the face of the conservative claim of the value of contracts.

    This is blatant and utter hypocrisy of the worst sort.

    For you and the right to push this defines you as the enemy of the people. I view you no differently that someone who provides a map to my home and urges people to break in and loot it because I have something that they want. And I know how most would deal with that sort of theft.
    You choose to look at only one side of the equation, the gov't (union) worker side. Where does the money for these gov't salary/benefit programs come from? The general working public, i.e. taxpayers. Much of that money, at the local level, comes from property taxation, based on the value of property (much of that beaing private homes), which have gone DOWN in value by over 20% in recent years, taking property tax revenues down along with that lower "re-appraised" value.

    So, even while the state has LESS money, you want the ALL of gov't workers' salary and benefits "protected", which leaves ONLY one "option", which is to raise taxation rates for the general public. You see this as "fair". yet it is clearly NOT. Why? Because the general public is being asked to pay MORE to simply get the SAME services from the same gov't employees, so that the general public bears ALL of the costs, and the gov't (union) workers bear NONE of of those costs.

    In WI governor Walker and the GOP saw this injustice, explained it (rather poorly) to the voters and got elected to power. They chose, instead of raising taxes and harming 90% of the WI economy, to cut spending and "harm" mainly the gov't (union) workers. Why? Obviously they decided that, although the gov't (union) workers are quite vocal, it harms far fewer WI voters.

    Was it fair? NO and YES, I will agree that it IS NOT FAIR to the current gov't (union) workers, as they are paying mainly for the past "sins" of gov't (union) workers (and politicians) that are guilty of promising FAR more than reality could sustain; It IS FAIR to the vast majority of the WI public (taxpayers) as they have done nothing, save for allowing the past politicians to promise too much, but that is a "sin" of omission, not commission, on their part and they do not deserve to be forced to pay more simply to keep what gov't services they now have.

    The demorats and republicants in WI should be open and honest with each other, as well as the general public of WI, and simply admit that THEY, the WI politicians (of BOTH parties), made a mess and have taken steps, as best they could, to correct that situation. It is not, and should not be seen as, a trend to always reduce the salary/benefits of ONLY the WI gov't (union) workers, in response to any future WI budget deficit. This was a ONE TIME correction, and should WI tax revenues fall any further, that "deficit" will be shared by all of WI citizens, by using BOTH tax rate increases and cuts in total gov't (union) worker funding, on a much more "equal" basis.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-13-12 at 08:36 AM.
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  4. #954
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It IS FAIR to the vast majority of the public taxpayers as they have done nothing, save for allowing the past politicians to promise too much, but that is a "sin" of omission, not commission on their part, and they do not deserve to be forced to pay more simply to keep what gov't services they now have.
    Then I'll be sure to deduct my portion of the interest on the public debt from my taxes next year because it's not MY problem (other than this "sin" of omission you claim) the politicians spent in excess of revenues more than fifty years in a row*. I have no obligation to repay those debts in any way, shape, or form. It's only FAIR, right?!?


    There we go! National Debt Problem is solved! You should be getting your Nobel notification anytime now.



    *There was one exception over fifty years but only the one.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-13-12 at 08:34 AM.
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  5. #955
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's horse crap! In the "natural order", that wild state we lived in for the past 200,000 years of our evolution, there was no "property" at all. People worked together as a tribe for the good of the tribe.
    That is incorrect - the lack of property rights is known as "anarchy", wherein the strong take from and occasionally enslave the weak.

  6. #956
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from cp will - his convenient excuse to ignore honoring pensions that workers earned over thirty or forty years of service



    There was no such thing ever done. Those contracts were negotiated by the parties involved - both of whom were the legal representatives with full power to do so - in complete good faith.

    You are making a completely irresponsible and unsubstantiated charge that covers a half decade or more of multiple contracts, negotiated by multiple persons. Making such a serious charge demands the highest level of evidence possible.

    You have presented none.

    This can only be viewed as a right wing attempt to screw workers out of their rightful benefits that they earned over decades of work for the people.

    It is sad that you would take such a position in the face of the conservative claim of the value of contracts.

    This is blatant and utter hypocrisy of the worst sort.

    For you and the right to push this defines you as the enemy of the people. I view you no differently that someone who provides a map to my home and urges people to break in and loot it because I have something that they want. And I know how most would deal with that sort of theft.
    Nothing is "convenient" about our current fiscal mess. But I like how you pull one sentence out of an entire page, post it out of context, and then go off on a rant.

    I like also how you expect others to answer direct questions, but apparently lack the courage or forthrightness to do the same.

    Cute. So, pulling things out of context to launch ad hominems while lacking the moral or intellectual backbone to defend your own claims when asked to do so. I guess you really do work for a Democrat politician.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-13-12 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #957
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The "ownership" (as you call it) of product depends on the laws of society. There is nothing innate or natural about property rights.
    That is incorrect - property rights are the foundation for all our other rights.

  8. #958
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    You quoted him previously saying this


    You are just making a fool out of yourself.
    I have no idea what you are talking about. The fool seems to be you in attempting to state that incomplete and cursory 'research' is superior to detailed research which accounts for many different variables. The Gould and Sheirholz 2011 study attempts to truly compares apples to apples and not apples to cinderblocks. But because you ideologically take issue with the findings, you prefer a shorthand and shipshod method. You remind me of that scene in FAST TIMES AT RIDGEMONT HIGH where Sean Penn is told by his teacher that he is offereing a half assed idea. He replies

    Oh No Mr___________________, its a fully assed.

    That is an interesting take on things.

    The variables considered were the following that are ignored in other data

    RaceWhite
    Hispanic Asian
    Other

    Gender

    Education level
    some high school
    some college
    Associates degree
    Bachelor's degree
    Advanced degree

    Age categories

    Maritial status

    Hourly worker
    Full-time worker
    Living in metropolatin area

    Industry
    12 differeent categories ranging from agriclulture to transportation to manufacturing to administration.


    It is inconceivable that you would want a half-assed approach to comparing wages rather than an honest apples to apples comparison. The 2011 Economic Policy Institute study does exactly this.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect - property rights are the foundation for all our other rights.
    Property rights are rights. They are important rights. All rights people have are important rights. Property rights are not elevated above all else or at the expense of all else.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #960
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Property rights are rights. They are important rights. All rights people have are important rights. Property rights are not elevated above all else or at the expense of all else.
    Agreed. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" seem a higher priority.

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