View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #911
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    1) you are assuming facts not in evidence. where he got his philosophies matter not as long as he adopted them his own I can call them part of the marxist agenda.

    2) you would have zero and would be several thousand dollars short. however, I constantly give you legal advice on this board for free so you might luck out

    3) marx is not a monster-its the idiots who treat him as some sort of inspiration
    Why don't you demonstrate how to both build and support a case? If I had zero like you claim that would be exactly what your fee would be worth.

    You can start with Marx. You can tell us how others discovered certain ideas hundreds and even thousands of years before he did but you still label the ideas as Marxism just the same.

    Perhaps the progressive income tax would be a suitable topic for you to start with?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    My apologies. Can I ask who you plan on voting for for president out of curiosity?
    I am not an American, so I can't vote. I am happy about that. America treats its expats terrible.

    If I could vote, I would probably chose to abstain. Or vote for a third party who shares my views, if it exist.

    That isn't true. It's just stuff that the anti-worker interests in the country say. It's just manipulation of the data. For example, that median income of $27k includes high school kids that work 6 hours a week, people who don't work at all, retirees, everybody. And that is salary, not total compensation. On the other hand, the figures you're tossing out about teachers making $120k and whatnot are ultra distorted figures that come from anti-working-class right wing lobbies. What they do is they pick a particular school district where the teachers happen to have been teaching a really long time where the cost of living is extremely high. Then they total up all compensation including questionable assumptions about the value of pensions and that sort of thing. Then they say that teachers only work 75% of the year, so they multiply the compensation by 1.33. And so forth. And then they present that as if that is what teachers actually make... And then compare it to the $27k figure... It's just trickery designed to get you riled up against working class folks.
    Yes, 27K does not include compensation, but a lot of people in America live on 20-30K in income. And as stated median household income is 45K. However, top income for teachers is about 80-100K in most school districts. Then we have to include compensation, money that is paid by the employee in other countries. That is benefits lower paid Americans are not getting. Many techers get excelent retirement benefits, and very good health care, pluss more. Their benefits tend to be worth about 30K USD. Hence income for old teachers is about 110K-130K in compensation. I would certainly call them rich. Think about how good you can live with that money. You can buy a ferrari, a 250 square meter house with a pool and take long vacations to exotic places every single year. To make it worse, many teachers believe their salary is too low.

    But what really annoys me the most about unions is that they think they should decide their wage and not the market, and we're paying for it. The wage should be set at a level that will give us enough qualified teachers. It should not be set at the level teachers can force themselves to have. And it also hurts the poor. When teachers or any public professions increae their wages, then it means less money for everything else, and worse public services. The states with the strongest unions, New York and California. Also, have the highest poverty rates adjusted for cost of living.

    Now, were you aware that Walker's budget that he insisted he needed to bust the unions to enact, which was supposedly about fiscal responsibility, actually increased the state deficit? He cut compensation for all the working class folks that work for the state and then he gave big businesses a tax cut that was slightly larger than the amount he took from the workers. It was just a straight up transfer of around $100 million from working class people to the rich.
    Now, a business tax cut is not going straight to the pockets of businesses, while giving money to overpaid teachers is.

    But most important is what is going to happen in the future. It will bring a sense of reality back to public unions in Wisconsin, and maybe they will realize that if they are going to function, then they can't prey on the working class.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    1- You do realize that much of what Karl Marx wrote about was not original and lifted in whole or in part from others - often going back hundreds of years?
    Indeed, but then not many of his followers realize this. Its exactly the same as Keynes. How many people that believe in Keynesian economics realize he stole the idea?

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Indeed, but then not many of his followers realize this.
    So your justification of ignorance is the existence of other ignorance?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Which is why the research of Dr.Lafer and the studies he used are far superior to your rather cursory and incomplete approach.

    But do not feel bad - he is a professional and uses other well respected professionals respected research.
    You really seem to be quite thick. Let me make it easy for you.

    Our aims are not the same. His aim is to check if RTW states are better than non-RTW states. (I think he fails this task miserably, because there are so many factors he didn't include.)

    That was never my aim. My aim was to check what states are richer. You do not become richer by having more black people. I just adjusted for one factor, and that is cost of living, because that is the only relevant factor. RTW states are richer than non RTW states.

    Also, you didn't even bother to respond about the points I made about his research, and how he is cherrypicking states. I guess that illustrate what kind of person you are.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So your justification of ignorance is the existence of other ignorance?
    They are using Marx as their backing and not those individuals that are long forgotten. All I'm doing is making it clear to everyone what they are doing.

    Furthermore, I'm not going to do a history lesson very time I post so I'm going to reference the philosophy being used by my opponents.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-12-12 at 11:07 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    They are using Marx as their backing and not those individuals that are long forgotten. All I'm doing is making it clear to everyone what they are doing.

    Furthermore, I'm not going to do a history lesson very time I post so I'm going to reference the philosophy being used by my opponents.
    Don't you guys on the far right ever get tired of having your knee hit with that little rubber hammer?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    You really seem to be quite thick. Let me make it easy for you.

    Our aims are not the same. His aim is to check if RTW states are better than non-RTW states. (I think he fails this task miserably, because there are so many factors he didn't include.)
    So lets see now...

    Lafer includes forty different factors when he compares wages and you proudly state you fail to do that including only one. And then you criticize him for failing to include so many different factors while you yourself look at but one.

    Got it.
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  9. #919
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I am not an American, so I can't vote. I am happy about that. America treats its expats terrible. ...

    It will bring a sense of reality back to public unions in Wisconsin, and maybe they will realize that if they are going to function, then they can't prey on the working class.
    No offense, but these are related. You seem to be getting a picture of the life of teachers from right wing sources that are giving you a ludicrously distorted picture of reality. I grew up with two public school teacher parents. We certainly were not poor, but nobody would ever have thought to describe as as upper middle class. More like lower middle class when I was growing up and middle class later on. For example, my parents didn't have anywhere near enough money or income to take on a full fledged mortgage even in the low cost of living rural location we lived in. So, they bought some land out in the woods, bought some tools, and with the volunteer help from some of their friends that knew what they were doing, they cut down trees on their land and built their own house. It took about a year, during which time we lived in a trailer. They didn't really have enough money to finish the house, so we lived in it sort of mostly finished for many years. For example, my parents' bedroom wall was exposed insulation for about 10 years. Every year or so they would save up enough money to put counter tops in in the kitchen or fix up the driveway or whatever and they eventually managed to finish the house about 15 years after we moved into it. Don't get me wrong, this isn't some sob story. I loved living there. I had tons of woods to play around in, we always had good, healthy, food. My mom grew a fair amount of it herself in a huge garden. It was a good life, but certainly if you're imagining that teachers are like living high on the hog taking advantage of people for their own enrichment or something... Well, that's absurdly far off the mark. Like I said earlier, when my mom retired after 30 some years of teaching, a master's degree plus 45 credits, after having written a reading curriculum that was nationally recognized, and working far more hours total per year than the average person, she was making $41k. Starting teachers in the town I grew up in today start at around $18k. If you have a family of 3 and only one wage earner, that is below the poverty line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    But what really annoys me the most about unions is that they think they should decide their wage and not the market
    The market is the price that gets negotiated between employers and employees. In the public sector there is really only one employer- the government. For many jobs that's the only employer. For example, there is no "market price" for firemen, it is just whatever the government sets the rate at. Unions aren't an alternative to the market, they are an attempt to even out the negotiating positions between the employer and the employees. When there is only one employer, they have incredible power at the negotiating table, and without collective bargaining, the employee has essentially no negotiating power at all. Unions are a way to fix that.

    Also, for public sector unions there is a key role that they play. It is a check on political whim destroying people's lives. All it takes is some politician runs on some hype about slashing government salaries and bam, all these people who made the patriotic choice to serve their country or state, who are now committed to that path get totally screwed so some politician can score cheap points. For example a teacher with 10 years of experience isn't going to go start over in some other field, so they're at the mercy of the government really. If there is no union and some tool gets elected and decides that he doesn't want to honor the terms that were in place when they agreed to take that path, they have no real protection. They're a particularly vulnerable type of worker because they often don't have a choice to just change employers like we do in the private sector. They're stuck with "take it or leave it".
    Last edited by teamosil; 06-12-12 at 11:25 PM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Why don't you demonstrate how to both build and support a case? If I had zero like you claim that would be exactly what your fee would be worth.

    You can start with Marx. You can tell us how others discovered certain ideas hundreds and even thousands of years before he did but you still label the ideas as Marxism just the same.

    Perhaps the progressive income tax would be a suitable topic for you to start with?
    there are very few original ideas in a species that has existed for thousands of years. Marx just happened to do a job of popularizing them,. Your request is dismissed as being silly and designed to divert or delay. if Marx adopted ideas and others call them "marxist" then that is good enough for this forum

    heavy inheritance tax is a plank of the Communist manifesto. look it up

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