View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #891
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Yes, that's how our legal system works. When a person buys something, they become the owner. Are you proposing a change to this?
    Let's see how much profit he makes from his property without some else's labor.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Am I backing the Republican Party? No, I am not.
    My apologies. Can I ask who you plan on voting for for president out of curiosity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    However, I do not like public unions much. Why? Because public union workers earn substantially more than non-union workers, and demanding more. Working class Americans will end up paying, because taxing rich Americans won't bring in much revenue.
    That isn't true. It's just stuff that the anti-worker interests in the country say. It's just manipulation of the data. For example, that median income of $27k includes high school kids that work 6 hours a week, people who don't work at all, retirees, everybody. And that is salary, not total compensation. On the other hand, the figures you're tossing out about teachers making $120k and whatnot are ultra distorted figures that come from anti-working-class right wing lobbies. What they do is they pick a particular school district where the teachers happen to have been teaching a really long time where the cost of living is extremely high. Then they total up all compensation including questionable assumptions about the value of pensions and that sort of thing. Then they say that teachers only work 75% of the year, so they multiply the compensation by 1.33. And so forth. And then they present that as if that is what teachers actually make... And then compare it to the $27k figure... It's just trickery designed to get you riled up against working class folks.

    Now, were you aware that Walker's budget that he insisted he needed to bust the unions to enact, which was supposedly about fiscal responsibility, actually increased the state deficit? He cut compensation for all the working class folks that work for the state and then he gave big businesses a tax cut that was slightly larger than the amount he took from the workers. It was just a straight up transfer of around $100 million from working class people to the rich.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  3. #893
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So you are ignorant of Marx?
    Loved all of his films. You cannot do better than Groucho as Rufus T. Firefly in DUCK SOUP. Great stuff.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  4. #894
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nonsense. First, private schools oddly get public money (tax dollars) in some areas. And they are selective. This means they get skewed results because there are so many schools that do not take poor perfroming students. What is better with them is the student. They offer nothing different in methodology, and often do not have teachers who are in any way better. In fact, some are quite a bit worse, as noted by them lacking credentials. MAke the students the same, and the results will be the same, if not the public schools actually doing better.

    You seem to have no knowledge or understanding of either public or private schools, or the problems faced in education. This is part of the problem. Too many who know nothing keep trying to force changes that will not help. Next time your car breaks down, take it to Hairstylist, as you promote knowing what you're doing doesn't matter.
    true but those of us who attended private schools and/or send our kids to private schools tend to be those with large property tax bills meaning we are paying for the education of others as well as tuition for our own kids--and guess what, I don't have a real problem with that since I have the option of sending my son to the excellent but very large public school in our prosperous town. I don't. But I don't really have a problem with some tax dollars (I don't know if they do) helping the school junior attends.

    Private schools also have something public schools often do not-parents who really care. that is worth a ton when it comes to achievement test scores etc.

    and thankfully, my son's school can hire those who have actually expertise in a given subject rather than wasting their time on getting the BS M Ed degrees the teachers unions demand in our public schools. Every teacher I had at that school save maybe 1-3 had masters, 2 had doctorates. My AP biology teacher had a masters in that subject from Williams. My English teacher-a Masters from Columbia, History-PhD Harvard, Math-U of Penn and so on

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Loved all of his films. You cannot do better than Groucho as Rufus T. Firefly in DUCK SOUP. Great stuff.
    that evasion is rotting in its grave.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Let's see how much profit he makes from his property without some else's labor.
    In order to produce goods to be sold, a business purchases factors of production, namely land labor and capital. The fact that one purchases inputs in order to produce products does not mean that one's inventory of finished goods belongs to anyone else.

    Inventory is the exclusive property of the business. Do you dispute this? Then, when the business sells its inventory, the proceeds are the exclusive property of the business. Do you dispute this?

  7. #897
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    First, off. The aims of the research, and my aim wasn't the same. I was just interested in one thing. Who is richer? Right to work, or states who are not right to work. For doing that, my data is complete. RTW states are richer.

    His research has the aim, does right to work benefit a state. I looked through his research, but his findings do not support his conclusion.
    I have read his findings and there is no doubt that his data is solid and his conclusions are firm and true. After adjusting for cost of living, right to work states have workers earning $1,500 LESS than workers in unionized states. And their benefits are far less as well.

    He is like many famous "experts", both on the left and the right, a fraud. That is how you become famous as a scientist in America.
    I do not know you. But allow me to get this straight. This man is a well respected professional who travels around then nation informing people about right to work. But you label him as a fraud and say that is how you become famous.

    Why should I take your word over his? Your analysis clearly does not account for the variables and differences that these major studies allowed for

    In a recent Economic Policy Institute study, a pair of economists conducted a rigorous statistical analysis to measure the impact of right-to-work laws on wages and benefits (Gould and Shierholz 2011). As shown in Table 4, this analysis controlled for more than 40 different factors, including the age, race, ethnicity, gender, education, industry, occupation, urbanization, full-time status, and cost of living of workers in different states, compared with the National Institute for Labor Relations Research and Mackinac Center studies, which did not control for any factors. Thus, the EPI analysis comes as close as possible to holding “all other things equal” in measuring the impact of right-to-work laws. The authors reached the following conclusions:

    Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socio-economic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-12-12 at 09:59 PM.
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  8. #898
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    When a person sells something, the proceeds are his. He owned the item, and when he sells it he then owns the proceeds. That's how our legal system works.

    So when a businessman sells the inventory that he owns, why would anyone but him be entitled to the proceeds?

    Are you suggesting a change to the legal system in which one does not own the proceeds from items he sells?
    You're just thinking about this at a much more generalized level than what I'm talking about. Of course people should get paid for stuff they sell.

    Maybe an example of the kind of rules I'm talking about would help. I worked at a number of start up and mid sized tech companies. In those situations generally it is more in the interests of the employees for the business to release realistic revenue numbers and grow steadily based on revenues, and generally it is more in the interests of the investors to produce spectacular sounding revenue figures to attract investors, shoot the value of the company up, sell it off, and then leave it to come collapsing back down once they're out with a flurry of firings and maybe a bankruptcy. Certainly not all investors want that and that isn't applicable in all companies, but it certainly is a situation that arises with some frequency. So, take just one very small rule that we as a society have to set- how are revenue numbers determined. There are lots of options. You could require that each department head signs off on a number for their department, you could require outside auditing companies to produce the numbers, you can allow them to count revenues for sales that haven't been delivered yet or not, you can have the investors elect people to come up with the numbers, you can allow them to count annual revenue streams in whatever quarter they want or you can make them even it out across the whole year, etc. Each of those choices either favors investors or workers in some way.

    There are literally tens of thousands of rules like that that we as a society have set up.

    My contention is that right now they are very imbalanced to favor investors and to disfavor employees. IMO that is why our income gap is exploding like it is.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  9. #899
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that evasion is rotting in its grave.
    You totally miss the point that traveled at least a mile above your head.

    Far too many right wing warriors like to throw out the name of Marx like a parent trying to scare a four year old with tales of the Boogeyman. So when that happens, I feel it is the duty of thinking people to gently tweak the invoker of Marx a bit. Its a gentle reminder to leave the frankenstein monster on the lab table as he is not fooling anybody.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Loved all of his films. You cannot do better than Groucho as Rufus T. Firefly in DUCK SOUP. Great stuff.
    I'll bring up the origin of nonsense if I feel like doing it. I also used him to tell the class what idea teamosil was actually talking about so it actually did serve a purpose.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-12-12 at 10:01 PM.

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