View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #861
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    that article contained no statistical study on right to work states adjusted for cost of living with union states. Why would you provide it as such when it utterly fails to do that?
    It does show that right to work states are not poor states like you stated.

    However, I used a half an hour to compute median household income in right to work states, and forced unionism states. And guess what I found

    Right to work: 51106
    Forced unionism: 50339

    Right to work states are richer. So right to work for less, is incorrect. They have the right to work for more.

    Data_RightToWork.xlsx download - 2shared
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-12-12 at 08:22 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    They earned it. What makes you think you have the right to take from them? Oh right, nothing.
    "Earned" it???

    Not even the IRS calls it earnings in most cases because it's not. Income? Yes. Earnings? No.
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  3. #863
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Actually they are easy to find see: Average salaries for full-time teachers in public and private elementary and secondary schools, by selected characteristics: 2007-08

    The gap seems to be closing slowly, yet private are still lower on average than public. The farther back you go the more the difference was, in the above link it is a bit over $11K/year on average, in favor of the public school teachers. I have not found more recent data yet.
    Most likely the qualifications were not the same. While some private schools have higher standards, and pay much more for those qualifications, many have much lower standards than public school systems. Over time that has been slowly changing as parents demand accredited teachers even in private schools.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-12-12 at 08:38 PM.
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  4. #864
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Supply and demand, as in students who need education and schools are built. Yes.
    Yes.

    But this is more like a fire department than selling a widget.
    If the fire department was private yes.

    Quality matters to some, but clearly not others.
    Quality matters to everything. Don't try to separate certain fields like fire and education.

    You could, in the market, get someone to pay you to just hand them a diploma, without any real teaching or learning going on.
    What does this have to do with what you said above?

    Would you go to a doctor without a degree in medicine? What drives you to a particular doctor? His education or what?
    Tell me, why is a doctor paid so much? Do you really think it is the degree? Or it perhaps the skill and the rarity and value of such a skill? However none of what I just said matters when talking about public school teachers.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-12-12 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    It does show that right to work states are not poor states like you stated.

    However, I used a half an hour to compute median household income in right to work states, and forced unionism states. And guess what I found

    Right to work: 51106
    Forced unionism: 50339

    Right to work states are richer. So right to work for less, is incorrect. They have the right to work for more.

    Data_RightToWork.xlsx download - 2shared
    First, my hat is off to you for actually trying to back up your claim with research. We rarely see that here and you are to be congratulated for it.

    However, I think your data is far from complete and thus your conclusion is not accurate nor factual.

    Dr. Gordon Lafer has made an extensive study of right to work. He is one of the national experts on the subject. Last year I was fortunate enough to be in the audience in a special in service he gave for members and staff of the Michigan legislature. Here is his report

    ‘Right to work’: The wrong answer for Michigan’s economy | Economic Policy Institute

    this is from the summary


    Right-to-work laws lower wages—for both union and nonunion workers alike—by an average of $1,500 per year, after accounting for the cost of living in each state.
    Right-to-work laws also decrease the likelihood that employees get either health insurance or pensions through their jobs—again, for both union and nonunion workers.By cutting wages, right-to-work laws threaten to undermine job growth by reducing the discretionary income people have to spend in the local retail, real estate, construction, and service industries. Every $1 million in wage cuts translates into an additional six jobs lost in the economy. With 85 percent of Michigan’s economy concentrated in health care, retail, education, and other non-manufacturing industries, widespread wage and benefit cuts could translate into significant negative spillover effects for the state’s economy.
    I would urge you to read the report and compare your findings to his.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    "Earned" it???

    Not even the IRS calls it earnings in most cases because it's not. Income? Yes. Earnings? No.
    I don't really care what the IRS thinks. It is their property and that is that.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Yes, that's how our legal system works. When a person buys something, they become the owner. Are you proposing a change to this?
    No... Not sure what you mean exactly. Sure, they'd still be the owner. People who own stock in companies that share more of the profits with their employees are still the owner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Someone else's proceeds are not yours to split up.
    You aren't really responding to my position. Whose proceeds they are is a decision we make as a society.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    What is your point. Yes, teaching is a good job with high pay, excellent benefits, and long vacations. I would say many teachers are above middle class.
    That is just absurd. You're being ridiculous. Teachers range between lower middle class and middle class. It's like you live on a different planet than I do... Do you not know any teachers or something?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Be sure to keep your head in the sand ...
    Do you know the organization that started it? That wasn't the free market.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I don't really care what the IRS thinks. It is their property and that is that.
    I always try to use the sale of a home as an example of a "capital gain". If you buy your house, at fair market value ($100K), make no improvements, and later sell it, at fair market value ($150K) you have NO real "capital gain". Why? Because you can still only buy that SAME house, not a house that is worth $50K more than the house that you just sold. In fact, after taxation, you no longer even have enough money left to buy your SAME old house back. ;-)
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-12-12 at 08:47 PM.
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