View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #851
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Not if you adjust for cost of living.
    Richest and Poorest States in the United States - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

    Among the 10 states on the bottom, only 3 are right to work. Namly Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas.
    that article contained no statistical study on right to work states adjusted for cost of living with union states. Why would you provide it as such when it utterly fails to do that?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    "Why do the rich deserve to keep more of their money than the working class?"

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    another one of the idiotic loaded questions. This is as silly a petulant rant I have ever seen

    That's what you say every time you cannot answer a question.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No, you moved the goal posts in that post even though your original statement was talking in general with no qualifications other than someone having a degree is a better teacher than someone without. (paraphrasing) When I showed you that you were wrong you moved the goalposts.
    Are you saying you were unaware of the all inclusive requirements that public schools must operate under? My bad for thinking you would have known that.

    Also just so you know, there are homeschooled kids with disabilites also. So you're attempt at an emotional appeal falls a bit flat.
    Let's see the comparative results then of kids with disabilities taught at home and those taught through the public school system.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #854
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I have only read through post #410+/-, primarily because so many pages had degenerated to petty bickering, but I have been thinking of this topic for several days. I said in a previous post that I didn't think that (public) unions are dying, but that we are seeing the end of inflexible and over-generous pensions. I want to expand on that.

    I do not believe unions... public or private... will ever go away completely (barring a totalitarian take-over), because of human nature and the "pendulum effect". Think: Why were unions formed to begin with? Business/corporate abuses of workers. Hence, unions formed, conditions improved, yada yada yada.

    However, there is a point where enough is done, and anything beyond that becomes absurd. We couldn't be happy with simple good working conditions. No, we had to allow unions to become big-business unto itself. Unions had to push for unwise pensions. Pensions that any reasonable person could see were unsustainable in the long term. Unions began to defend the indefensible... workers who were lazy, or dangerous, or incompetent, or all of the above. Does that help the work environment? No. Does it increase and/or maintain the union's power base and dues? You bet. The "pendulum" had swung to the other extreme. Now, the "pendulum" is swinging back. The shortsighted unwise actions of unions began to catch up with them, and the "pendulum" is swinging back the other direction at an even faster pace today. Looked at objectively, this really shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, even union supporters.

    So, what will happen? Rinse and repeat. Unions will continue to lose power for awhile. Businesses/corporations will begin to take advantage of workers again. Fill in the gap, so to speak. (Yes, they will, it's how humans are.) The outrage directed against unions today will begin to shift. People will begin to value unions again to protect them from businesses/corporations.

    And it will continue to go back-and-forth.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  5. #855
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    This is where you wander far, far away from reality. You have been told, and will readily accept, AND CONSTANTLY REPEAT, that ONLY people holding a certain degree or certificate, defined as needed ONLY by those currently holding such degrees and certification, CAN effectively teach children in PUBLIC schools. Yet, with our own eyes, we SEE private schools using "less qualified" and lower paid PROFESSIONAL TEACHERS to attain BETTER (not just as good as) student performance on STANDARDIZED tests than those PUBLIC SCHOOLS using your "very qualified", certificate bearing, higher paid public teaching staff.

    Only a moron would believe that ONLY a master mechanic can the change oil, fix a flat tire or perform a tune-up on your car, yet YOU constantly assert that nothing short of a masters degree permits ANYONE from teaching a 3rd grader basic math skills. This is EXACTLY why we can not allow teachers unions to set the rules, and then "negotiate" how much to pay those that "meet the qualifications" that they defined as necessary using NO BASIS other than their own say so.

    The argument ALWAYS used is that the public school teachers are BETTER because they hold fancy, higher level, paper credentials that deserve "reverence" and thus command "higher pay". Yet, the professional teachers (but not as "well educated"), used in private schools, SOMEHOW manage to constantly (consistantly?) produce better educated STUDENTS while spending less money, per pupil, to do that job; IMHO that proves that private teachers, although BOTH less "educated" and lower paid are, in fact, BETTER.
    I don't believe in absolutes, so I accept that I can find one person with less credentials who might be better than a certain person with credentials. But that does not hold true on the average. Your premises that knowing less is better si something I'd like to see you support.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Did you notice what made that occur? Here is a hint it wasn't the "free" market.
    Be sure to keep your head in the sand ...
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    *Rubs eyes in disappointment*

    Are public schools governed by supply and demand? yes or no.

    Are private schools governed by supply and demand? yes or no.

    Why people decide on the job has nothing to do with my point. If I was talking about teachers and why they decided on private schools your point would be valid, but I didn't do such a thing.
    Supply and demand, as in students who need education and schools are built. Yes. But this is more like a fire department than selling a widget. Quality matters to some, but clearly not others. You could, in the market, get someone to pay you to just hand them a diploma, without any real teaching or learning going on. You should spend sometime talking to parents for a while and you might understand what I'm talking about.

    *Facedesk* What drives payment? If it was degrees than every last field that needed a BA or MA would pay you extremely well. Again, its wonderful you found some talking point, but it has nothing to do with anything.

    And many people DO know how to teach that are not teachers. Did you forget the success of homeschooling?
    Would you go to a doctor without a degree in medicine? What drives you to a particular doctor? His education or what?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #858
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    You're right. It's not in that post. But do you know what it means? It appears as if you don't, or you would not be so confused.
    I have no clue what it means as you might be attempting to use it.


    You act like my wife. If I can't read your mind then it's somehow MY fault!
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-12-12 at 07:51 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Perhaps, but I'm still unaware of any rich person who has any sort of power over me, other than those in the government, of course.
    If you want to start with the ones influencing the government that's fine with me. That's not all of them by a long shot but at least it's a beginning!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    And if a "fat cat" can hire a very skilled Chinese laborer for one fifth of what you cost, why should he hire you?
    Race to the bottom!!!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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