View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #831
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When you say REVENUES, you are restricting your statement to one tax paid to one level of government are you not while ignoring all other taxes? And that would be the federal income tax?
    Nope. Though the heavy skewing in the Income Tax is what pushes them ahead. In this country we tax the wealthy. What we don't do, by and by, is tax the middle class. Not at the Federal Level, anywho.

    You are playing games with percentages which are only possible because we have excluded nearly half the population from the federal income tax. The rich are paying far lower rates and a lower percentage of THEIR OWN INCOME than at any time since WW2.
    That is false both for both nominal and effective tax rates. Though as I recall, you have trouble distinguishing between the two.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Nope. Though the heavy skewing in the Income Tax is what pushes them ahead. In this country we tax the wealthy. What we don't do, by and by, is tax the middle class. Not at the Federal Level, anywho.



    That is false both for both nominal and effective tax rates. Though as I recall, you have trouble distinguishing between the two.
    Then by all means do present your information, data and statistics on all that you claim.
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  3. #833
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    easy enough. I've shown you this stuff about... what? 5 ish times now?

    You claim:
    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket
    The rich are paying far lower rates and a lower percentage of THEIR OWN INCOME than at any time since WW2.
    Top Nominal Tax Rate is currently 35%. At the end of the 1980s the Top Nominal Tax Rate was 28%.

    According to the Tax Policy Center the effective tax rate for the highest quintile as of 2006 was 25.8% - pretty much about within the same stable range from 1979, when the effective tax rate for that quintile was 27.5%. In 1986 it dipped down to 23.8%, and in 1997 it climbed up to 28%.

    Mind you, that's for the top fifth. As I pointed out to you with the IRS data earlier, the top 1% pay an effective tax rate of around 31%.

    Regardless, the notion that the wealthy are paying less is a falsehood. Higher effective tax rates have remained roughly stable over the past 3 decades, and their share of taxes paid has increased.

    Our fiscal issues aren't the result of a failure to tax. They are a result of this:





    but this isn't a thread about wealthy paying taxes. This is a thread about Public Unions, and why you refuse to provide the reasoning behind your belief that they will come back after losing half or more of their membership and millions upon millions of dollars.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-12-12 at 11:37 AM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I asked you earlier if this was about one tax paid to one level of government - the federal income tax. Your reply was NOPE.

    But then that is all you present in your post.

    So which is it ?

    You want to get back to talking about public employee unions and benefits? Fine. Here is a direct question for you:

    Do you or do you not favor government honoring its contractual commitments to those who fulfilled there contractual commitments to government during their period of employment?
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-12-12 at 11:46 AM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    NO. This is the biggest problem with public education; it costs far more than private education, per student, yet yields worse results BOTH according to standardized student test scores and graduation rates. How is it POSSIBLE that these less qualified, lower paid, priavte school teachers get better results, in fact, so much better, that nearly ALL that have a choice, pick these private schools for their own children to attend?
    Nonsense. First, private schools oddly get public money (tax dollars) in some areas. And they are selective. This means they get skewed results because there are so many schools that do not take poor perfroming students. What is better with them is the student. They offer nothing different in methodology, and often do not have teachers who are in any way better. In fact, some are quite a bit worse, as noted by them lacking credentials. MAke the students the same, and the results will be the same, if not the public schools actually doing better.

    You seem to have no knowledge or understanding of either public or private schools, or the problems faced in education. This is part of the problem. Too many who know nothing keep trying to force changes that will not help. Next time your car breaks down, take it to Hairstylist, as you promote knowing what you're doing doesn't matter.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is not possible since you keep changing the "rules". You AGREE that public teachers make more than private teachers, then assert that is not a FAIR public/private comparsion because private teachers are underpaid. It is not possible, in your mind, that private teachers are correctly paid but that public teachers are overpaid (but ONLY because YOU say so).

    So you want to compare public teachers pay to other (as yet unnamed) private "comparable" positions based on the number of years of education (but not in the same fields of study) that have entirely different work schedules. Then you say that is not fair either because the "comparable" public teacher education is somehow "continuing education" making public teachers no longer comparable to whatever you were comparing them to (again, as yet unnamed). Please start with SPECIFICALLY what a public teacher's pay is comparable to in the private world, then MAYBE I can see what you are talking about.
    You still haven't answered this:

    Depends on the private schools and the teacher, but if they do, would that mean public schools pay too much or private schools too little?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #837
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Do mean because I don't ignore that teaching one child without handicaps, learning disability, and from a good socio-economic background is different than teaching a classroom of 30 that is all inclusive? Surely you jest!
    No, you moved the goal posts in that post even though your original statement was talking in general with no qualifications other than someone having a degree is a better teacher than someone without. (paraphrasing) When I showed you that you were wrong you moved the goalposts.

    Also just so you know, there are homeschooled kids with disabilites also. So you're attempt at an emotional appeal falls a bit flat.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You still haven't answered this:

    Depends on the private schools and the teacher, but if they do, would that mean public schools pay too much or private schools too little?
    Private schools are driven by the market while public education is only driven by how people feel and what the union can squeeze out of the citizens of the country. The excuse of a levels of education is nothing but that, an excuse to get higher pay. There is no reason to suspect I should pay them more because they have a masters and no I'm not accepting fairness arguments.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Private schools are driven by the market while public education is only driven by how people feel and what the union can squeeze out of the citizens of the country. The excuse of a levels of education is nothing but that, an excuse to get higher pay. There is no reason to suspect I should pay them more because they have a masters and no I'm not accepting fairness arguments.
    Makes no difference. Market is magic. In fact, the market also produces inferior products sold cheap. And like I said, next time you car breask down, or you're ill with something serious, go to your hairdresser. And don't tell me being educated is an excuse. Just let her or him fix your car and treat your illness. It will likely be cheaper.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Makes no difference. Market is magic. In fact, the market also produces inferior products sold cheap. And like I said, next time you car breask down, or you're ill with something serious, go to your hairdresser. And don't tell me being educated is an excuse. Just let her or him fix your car and treat your illness. It will likely be cheaper.
    Market magic dictates that compensation is tied to production. The violation of that dictate leaves market forces meaningless. This is obviously the case in ill-managed businesses, especially those infected with management incompetence, cronyism and nepotism. This is also the case of for government management, except that the causes are collectively called public unions and partisan politics.

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