View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #821
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Sorry but I disagree with this. There are plenty of home schooled children that do just as well, if not better than public school children scholastically speaking. And those parents don't have a teaching degree. Hell, I'm a better teacher than my sons first grade teacher. She just tried to get him to learn reading by rote instead of actually figuring out how to sound out the words. I know this because I spent a day with him in his class watching how he was doing and how the teacher was teaching.
    years ago, in Cincinnati, there was an effort to get community leaders who were winding down their careers to volunteer as teachers in specialized subjects. A great idea-having the CEO of Proctor and Gamble do a course on finance or a federal judge teach a basic class on civil rights and law. Yet the teachers unions opposed it claiming that these people were "NOT QUALIFIED" because they didn't have the union imposed teaching degrees. My son's school is a private school that yearly turns out kids who earn Phi Beta Kappa keys at places like Princeton and Yale. IN the last 30 years we have had two Rhodes Scholars (Harvard and Stanford) a dozen Fullbright Scholars etc. But the teachers aren't "Qualified" because they have masters, and in several cases, doctorates, in real subjects.

  2. #822
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    No, teacher has gone from 120K to 150K. That was more what could happen in the future if teacher unions get what they want.

    Also, I am not really talking about salaries, but compensation. That is salaries plus benefits. The highest paid teachers earn about 120K in compensation. If their salaries keep increasing by 4.5% like they want, then in 5 years their wage with compensation will be 150K. That is going to hurt the poor, because public budgets have to be cut, or taxes have to be increased.
    Ok thats nonesense and pure supposition....Teachers are NOT overpaid, I am not going to go into what I know happens in my daughters school and what teachers in the classroom are subjected too...it would just cause a firestorm on this forum.
    Teachers go through hell in many school districts and people are totally oblivious to just how difficult the job is...Teachers with Master Degrees make incredibly low pay to education ratio....This rant on public workers is pure hyperbole created by the far right RICH to create class warfare to enhance their political agenda

  3. #823
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Like I said, you have no clue what the laws are here so you're just talking out your ass. You assume some coercive force on the part of public sector unions but the major coercive force of private sector unions, the ability to strike, has been stripped from them. Like I said, no one here can "take over government". Your arguments fails.
    They can't strike? You'd better tell the Chicago Teachers Union that. Apparently they didn't get the memo. In reality, that's a state-by-state question. Not that it really matters, when strike isn't allowed, everyone just takes "sick days, of which they have plenty, and the effect is the same. Wisconsin's citizens wanted a public education system, and the teachers unions told them tough cookies, if we want to protest, you aren't going to get it.

    In Europe, where the public sector unions are stronger, so are their abilities to - yes - seize control.

    Protesting Austerity Moves, Unions Shut Down Greece
    ...A two-day national strike of both private and public workers has begun in Greece. The strike, in protest of the government's austerity measures, is expected to practically close down the country — with no flights, ferries, buses or rail service...

    Anti-austerity general strike paralyses Portugal
    ...Public services across Portugal ground to a halt on Thursday as trade unions held a 24-hour walk out. The strikers are protesting against a raft of austerity measures introduced by the government in exchange for financial aid...

    Unions try to shut down France over pensions
    ...Workers tried to shut down France on Tuesday with strikes affecting airports, public transportation, schools and the postal service in a showdown with President Nicolas Sarkozy over his government's attempt to raise the retirement age by two years to save money....


    and so on and so forth. Each one of the examples above (and those randomly selected) represent a seizure of sovereignty from the people of those governments. Each of those populaces voted to have public education, public transportation, and so forth, and each one of them had their public goods taken from them by public sector unions to use for their ends rather than the public's.



    You don't think that public sector unions exercise incredible control over their areas of government? Try reforming anything in California. Even the Governator had to bow down to someone bigger and badder than him - 80 cents of every government dollar in California goes to Public Employee Compensation, their fiscal hole is bigger than ever, and the state is collapsing because of it. In most localities, the most powerful political force is the Teachers Union.

    As SEIU likes to brag, they have the power to elect their own bosses. But when you elect your own boss, you sit at both ends of the negotiating table. And when you sit at both ends of the negotiating table..... (...drumroll...) you control it.

    And they do elect their own boss. It turns out that when you look at those actual local elections that Public Union Support Is Just As Or More Powerful A Political Force Than Incumbency.
    ...incumbency boosted a candidate’s reelection chances by 47 percent. Union support boosted the odds by 56 percent. The combination of union support and incumbency boosted the odds by 76 percent — an important factor, since many of those incumbents became incumbents on the strength of earlier union support, meaning that the unions are compounding the effectiveness of their electoral efforts over time, stocking the incumbent pipeline with their favored candidates...
    At the local and even at the state level, our elected leaders often answer more to public sector unions than the public sector unions do to them. That's an inverted power structure, and it means that the voters (who are powerful only as much as their representatives are) are effectively neutered in a general basis from affecting their own government. As AFSCME's Larry Scanlon put it: "We're the Big Dog."
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-12-12 at 09:05 AM.

  4. #824
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    They can't strike? You'd better tell the Chicago Teachers Union that. Apparently they didn't get the memo. In reality, that's a state-by-state question. Not that it really matters, when strike isn't allowed, everyone just takes "sick days, of which they have plenty, and the effect is the same. Wisconsin's citizens wanted a public education system, and the teachers unions told them tough cookies, if we want to protest, you aren't going to get it.

    In Europe, where the public sector unions are stronger, so are their abilities to - yes - seize control.

    Protesting Austerity Moves, Unions Shut Down Greece



    Anti-austerity general strike paralyses Portugal



    Unions try to shut down France over pensions




    and so on and so forth. Each one of the examples above (and those randomly selected) represent a seizure of sovereignty from the people of those governments. Each of those populaces voted to have public education, public transportation, and so forth, and each one of them had their public goods taken from them by public sector unions to use for their ends rather than the public's.



    You don't think that public sector unions exercise incredible control over their areas of government? Try reforming anything in California. Even the Governator had to bow down to someone bigger and badder than him - 80 cents of every government dollar in California goes to Public Employee Compensation, their fiscal hole is bigger than ever, and the state is collapsing because of it. In most localities, the most powerful political force is the Teachers Union.

    As SEIU likes to brag, they have the power to elect their own bosses. But when you elect your own boss, you sit at both ends of the negotiating table. And when you sit at both ends of the negotiating table..... (...drumroll...) you control it.

    And they do elect their own boss. It turns out that when you look at those actual local elections that Public Union Support Is Just As Or More Powerful A Political Force Than Incumbency.


    At the local and even at the state level, our elected leaders often answer more to public sector unions than the public sector unions do to them. That's an inverted power structure, and it means that the voters (who are powerful only as much as their representatives are) are effectively neutered in a general basis from affecting their own government. As AFSCME's Larry Scanlon put it: "We're the Big Dog."
    All those propaganda pieces sound real good to the anti union anti middleclass far right crowd....but heres the facts CPWILL.

    The rich pay half the taxs they were 20 yrs ago...theyve gotten fabulously richer the middleclass fabulously POORER the middle class has shrunk the number in poverty has risen dramatically and the rich sent all the jobs to china while thier taxs fell hugely...
    Its all a big lie...

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Ok thats nonesense and pure supposition....Teachers are NOT overpaid, I am not going to go into what I know happens in my daughters school and what teachers in the classroom are subjected too...it would just cause a firestorm on this forum.
    Teachers go through hell in many school districts and people are totally oblivious to just how difficult the job is...Teachers with Master Degrees make incredibly low pay to education ratio....This rant on public workers is pure hyperbole created by the far right RICH to create class warfare to enhance their political agenda
    It depends on which schools. No, they are not overpaid on the really bad public schools. They have a hard time finding qualified teachers on bad schools. However, they are overpaid on the rest. Private teachers earn substantially less than public teachers. If public teachers weren't overpaid, then private teachers should earn the same. You will find that in many countries, private schools give out higher salaries because they want to get the best teachers.

    But this discussion wasn't really about teachers pay, but about public unions. The reason I had to use teachers as an example was because Catawba refused to accept that public sector union workers earn more than US average. Even though I could document that public sector earns substantially more, and so do union workers.

    My point was that increases in public sector wages hurt the poor. Private professional can get public sector jobs, so if public sector increases their wages, then so will the rich private sector. However, the poor can not compete for public sector jobs, they are not qualified. Hence they are not going to see increased wages. They will instead experience higher taxes, worse public services, and higher costs.
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-12-12 at 09:18 AM.

  6. #826
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    All those propaganda pieces sound real good to the anti union anti middleclass far right crowd....but heres the facts CPWILL.
    propaganda pieces? dude - I'm citing public unions own pages. I'm quoting their own words. I'm not the only one saying they are powerful - they are

    OpenSecrets.org keeps a "Heavy Hitters" List, tracking the largest overall donors from 1989-2012. You might find their Top Twenty instructive

    1 ActBlue
    2 AT&T Inc
    3 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees
    4 National Assn of Realtors
    5 National Education Assn
    6 Goldman Sachs
    7 Service Employees International Union
    8 American Assn for Justice
    9 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
    10 American Federation of Teachers
    11 Laborers Union
    12 Teamsters Union
    13 Carpenters & Joiners Union
    14 Communications Workers of America
    15 Citigroup Inc
    16 American Medical Assn
    17 United Food & Commercial Workers Union
    18 United Auto Workers
    19 National Auto Dealers Assn
    20 Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union
    Well, huh, look at that. A lot of them seem to be bolded....

    The rich pay half the taxs they were 20 yrs ago
    Wrong. The wealthy pay a larger percentage of our revenues than they did 20 years ago. In fact, the United States leans more on upper income households than any other industrialized nation.

    .theyve gotten fabulously richer the middleclass fabulously POORER
    Wrong again. Income has increased for all quintiles, simply increasing faster for knowledge workers as our economy came to value them more.

    the middle class has shrunk
    No - the upper range of income considered "middle class" has expanded.

    the number in poverty has risen dramatically
    Over the last handful of years, absolutely. You can thank the worst "recovery" in post-war history for that one.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-12-12 at 09:32 AM.

  7. #827
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    The reason I had to use teachers as an example was because Catawba refused to accept that public sector union workers earn more than US average. Even though I could document that public sector earns substantially more, and so do union workers.
    According to SEIU's Education Chapter:
    ...Union members earn more than their non-union counterparts—28% more, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. For Latinos and women workers, the union impact is even greater. Women workers who are union members earn nearly 32% more a year than their non-union counterparts. For Latino workers the union advantage is 43 %....

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    More right-wing propaganda. I've spent over 20 years of my life in Greece and can attest to the fruits of strong public unions on the country beyond the occasional paralysis. I've lived it.

    The Greeks got to this point the old-fashioned way: They spent more money on the public sector than they possibly could afford, and then lied about it. Last year, they announced that their deficit wasn't 3.7 percent of gross domestic product as advertised, but 12.7 percent. Only in Athens does a multiplier of more than three qualify as a rounding error.

    Public wages and pension payments absorb half of the Greek national budget. The government doesn't know exactly how many people are in the civil service, since that would require competence. It's now undertaking a census of civil servants. The guess is that it's about one-in-three people. The constitution guarantees these jobs for life.

    During the past decade, public-sector workers have seen their pay double. They get bonuses of an extra two months' pay annually no matter what, and cushy pensions. According to the New York Times, the author of "The Guide to Granting Civil Service Pensions in Greece" retired at age 60, and 13 years later has a pension that pays better than his salary when he quit.

    When the public-sector unions are out in the streets - perhaps tossing petrol bombs at the police - they will be the shock troops of bankruptcy. They want their country good and broke, just as they rendered it over the years with their self-interested, bullying profligacy.


    RealClearPolitics - The Greek Unions -- And Ours

  9. #829
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    from Camlon

    Are you stating that schools in rich areas are not better than schools in poor areas?
    I am stating - and I thought I was quite clear - that your overly general statement was worthless.

    If you don't disagree with that, and agree that most private schools are in rich areas. Then you agree with me that private schools are on average better than public schools.
    As I said, such a general statement is worthless.

    Originally Posted by haymarket
    False premise.


    1. No, if you are above the threshold of 70K in income with compensation, then you are above the working class. The upper middle class is not the working class.
    And this broad and general statement comes from where exactly?


    2. That just makes it worse. Imagine if we paid those CEOs salaries.
    But we do not pay civil servants CEO salaries so you have no point there.

    3. They are already rich. Many of the public sector workers earn very high salaries compared to the average Americans. Lets talk about another country. In Norway the average wage is aproximatly 270K NOK. In the US, the average wage is approximatly 27K USD. If you earn 700K or more in Norway, you are considered rich. Many public sector workers earn salaries much more than 70K USD, with very good benefits. Benefits you won't get in Norway. And they are getting richer. They want salary increases of 5% per year. That is significantly higher than a working class American.
    First, define rich.
    Second, we are not talking about Norway.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    from cpwill on US taxation

    Wrong. The wealthy pay a larger percentage of our revenues than they did 20 years ago. In fact, the United States leans more on upper income households than any other industrialized nation.
    When you say REVENUES, you are restricting your statement to one tax paid to one level of government are you not while ignoring all other taxes? And that would be the federal income tax?

    You are playing games with percentages which are only possible because we have excluded nearly half the population from the federal income tax. The rich are paying far lower rates and a lower percentage of THEIR OWN INCOME than at any time since WW2.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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