View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #781
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I was a little wrong. It is over two years. Still, significantly more than 4.5%.

    Blog: Chicago teachers union demanding 30% pay increase over two years
    Do you have a source that is not a conservative blog, or did this not make the real news?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Do you have a source that is not a conservative blog, or did this not make the real news?
    Just take a look at the links in the article. You gave me a liberal source, and expected me to read it. You should be able to stand a conservative source.

    Also, when are you going to admit you were wrong. Or are you just going to pretend you never said it?

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Just take a look at the links in the article. You gave me a liberal source, and expected me to read it. You should be able to stand a conservative source.

    Also, when are you going to admit you were wrong. Or are you just going to pretend you never said it?
    The Chicago Tribune says the 24% increase proposed by the teachers union there is to cover the expanded teaching day proposed by the City. It also notes that negotiations are ongoing so nothing has been decided at this point.

    And what am I supposed to admit to being wrong about?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    "A University of Illinois study, published in the American Journal of Education, found that public school students scored just as well in math as students attending private schools, when you compared students of similar ethnic and economic backgrounds. The study followed earlier research that showed public school students scored slightly better (though within the margin of error) than private school students in the same income and ethnic demographic.

    One of the ways that many private schools portray themselves as superior options to public schools is by cherry-picking the students they admit. It's easy to show off students with high test scores and impressive academic achievements when you admit only the students who are inclined - through family support and personal initiative - to score and perform well.

    What the University of Illinois research did is to make an apples-to-apples comparison which showed that similar students do just as well or better in a public school environment than in private schools.

    I don't want to talk anyone out of attending a private school, if that's your choice and you can afford it. But I do want to talk you out of believing that you have to choose a private school, if you want the best for your children's education. Your child can get an excellent education in the public schools, just as millions of other are getting. The data proves it!


    Many politicians, including education officials in the Obama administration, are pushing charter schools as a superior alternative to traditional public schools, which are accountable to the local community through elected school boards. Charter schools don't have to follow the same rules as public schools, and the idea is that greater freedom flexibility allows them to succeed.

    Except that they don't. A Stanford University study found that students at charter schools were more likely to score worse than public schools students than they were to outperform those students - 37% percent of charter schools did worse than comparable public schools, while only 17% did better. The rest, 46%, scored the same.

    So, if you are a parent who picks a charter school over a public school, you're more likely to end up worse off than going to your local public school than you are to end up in a better-performing school."

    Why I send my children to public schools
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #785
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Everybody has opinions. Thanks for sharing yours.
    This isn't an opinion actually. This is fact.

    1. In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.

    This was confirmed in another study by Dr. Lawrence Rudner of 20,760 homeschooled students which found the homeschoolers who have homeschooled all their school aged years had the highest academic achievement. This was especially apparent in the higher grades. ii This is a good encouragement to families catch the long-range vision and homeschool through high school.
    Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

    Some colleges search for homeschooled students, citing that homeschoolers tend to outperform many of their peers. The child that is homeschooled tends to have about a 3.46 GPA, or a B average, while the majority of publically educated students fall roughly at 2.54, which is a C average. Homeschooling statistics consistently reveal that homeschooled college students rate 15-30% higher than their cohorts.
    Homeschooling Statistics Prove Homeschooling on the Rise

    Also, the bit about my sons teacher...that is not opinion either. That is fact. Granted it's ancedotal and will no doubt be disgarded. But it is fact none the less.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This isn't an opinion actually. This is fact.



    Academic Statistics on Homeschooling



    Homeschooling Statistics Prove Homeschooling on the Rise

    Also, the bit about my sons teacher...that is not opinion either. That is fact. Granted it's ancedotal and will no doubt be disgarded. But it is fact none the less.


    And this proves what?

    See the studies above I just referenced. Home schoolers, like private schools, do not have to accept every child in the nation, regardless of handicap, disability or socio-economic background.

    If Public school teachers only had to teach their own children they would have better results than those without teaching credentials.
    Last edited by Catawba; 06-12-12 at 05:16 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And this proves what?

    See the studies above I just referenced. Home schoolers, like private schools, do not have to accept every child in the nation, regardless of handicap, disability or socio-economic background.

    If Public school teachers only had to teach their own children they would have better results than those without teaching credentials.
    Wish we had a "moving goal posts" emote. Because it would be perfect right here.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  8. #788
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "A University of Illinois study, published in the American Journal of Education, found that public school students scored just as well in math as students attending private schools, when you compared students of similar ethnic and economic backgrounds. The study followed earlier research that showed public school students scored slightly better (though within the margin of error) than private school students in the same income and ethnic demographic.
    Adjusting for ethnic and social background is BS anyway. As public schools in rich areas are going to be good schools, and public schools in poor areas are going to be bad schools. And most public schools are in bad areas. However, private schools in bad areas doesn't exist because poor people can not afford tuition fees.

    To say it another way, there are a lot more good private schools than public schools.

    The Chicago Tribune says the 24% increase proposed by the teachers union there is to cover the expanded teaching day proposed by the City. It also notes that negotiations are ongoing so nothing has been decided at this point.
    They are also demanding significant reductions in class sizes which means less students to handle, and hence lower wage. Also, the reason they are increasing the workday is to get them in line with other teachers around the country. Hence, the expectations from the teacher union is crazy.

    But that is beyond the point. The point is, it is not unreasonable to expect a strong teacher union to get wage increases of 4.5% per year.

    And what am I supposed to admit to being wrong about?
    That all teachers who have a degree and a certificate, are good teachers. That is incorrect, and I am still waiting for you to admit you were wrong. Is it difficult for you to admit you were wrong?

  9. #789
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wish we had a "moving goal posts" emote. Because it would be perfect right here.
    Do mean because I don't ignore that teaching one child without handicaps, learning disability, and from a good socio-economic background is different than teaching a classroom of 30 that is all inclusive? Surely you jest!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Adjusting for ethnic and social background is BS anyway.
    You just refuted that with your very own next two sentences.

    As public schools in rich areas are going to be good schools, and public schools in poor areas are going to be bad schools. And most public schools are in bad areas. However, private schools in bad areas doesn't exist because poor people can not afford tuition fees.

    To say it another way, there are a lot more good private schools than public schools.
    Once again the data refutes your opinion, as I documented above:

    "A Stanford University study found that students at charter schools were more likely to score worse than public schools students than they were to outperform those students - 37% percent of charter schools did worse than comparable public schools, while only 17% did better. The rest, 46%, scored the same."


    They are also demanding significant reductions in class sizes which means less students to handle, and hence lower wage. Also, the reason they are increasing the workday is to get them in line with other teachers around the country. Hence, the expectations from the teacher union is crazy.
    I think I will wait and see how the negotiations work out, instead of speculating as you are doing.

    But that is beyond the point. The point is, it is not unreasonable to expect a strong teacher union to get wage increases of 4.5% per year.
    I agree that would be ideal, but that depends on the negotiations.

    That all teachers who have a degree and a certificate, are good teachers.
    I never said that, and those few bad apples need to be weeded out. What I said was that a properly qualified teacher with the necessary degrees and certifications was better than a teacher without the necessary degrees and certifications.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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