View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #741
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post


    The education standards in American public schools are horrible. Private schools tend to be much better, because parents pay for their children education, and will pull their kids out if the school is substandard,
    Once again you are wrong.

    "While public schools have certain minimum requirements for teachers including certification and specific degrees, private schools have much greater leeway. Therefore, teachers in private schools may not be required to have certifications or specific degrees to teach in their subject areas."

    Teaching at Private Versus Public Schools - Public School Compared to Private School Teaching
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The claim that the person who puts in money has more of a claim to the profits generate by a business than the people who put in labor is just arbitrary.
    Its not arbitrary. If I'm using my property to create a product and pay the workers that work for me the profits of such an venture go to me as I'm putting in all the capital. The workers are putting in labor to the equation and putting zero personal capital up for risk. They have no claims to capital that comes out.

    And who the hell said the owner is not putting in any labor? Is that really what you believe?

    You still haven't shown me how in your solution you aren't creating a claim to property out of no where. Your solution basically is party A using his property to create a product and takes all the capital risk and party B that helped(which is already paid for) gets the returns or least some of it. It makes no rational sense.


    Your theory doesn't make sense. Buffett is an investor. He owns shares in the same companies the folks right below him do.
    You don't get to the top by allowing everyone to go with you.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-12-12 at 01:55 AM.

  3. #743
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    You want quotes, here you go.

    Then I prove you wrong, and you said

    You left out where you proved me wrong.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #744
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Once again you are wrong.

    "While public schools have certain minimum requirements for teachers including certification and specific degrees, private schools have much greater leeway. Therefore, teachers in private schools may not be required to have certifications or specific degrees to teach in their subject areas."

    Teaching at Private Versus Public Schools - Public School Compared to Private School Teaching
    Degrees, or certificates do not make you a good teacher. A high school graduate can be a much better teacher than a person with a doctorate in teaching. Teaching is not a skill you can learn well by using textbooks.

    However, private school teachers have an incentive public school teachers don't have. They can get fired for doing a bad job. A bad public teacher can just keep their job, and there is no way you can fire him. For instance do you think active pedophiles will be good teachers. Still, many active pedophiles are still teaching because it is impossible to fire anyone. Sometimes they are so bad, they pay them to do nothing.

    I have seen enough bad teachers in public high schools. And private teachers are significantly better than public teachers, but are paid less. Why don't they get a public teaching job, because public teaching jobs at non-terrible schools, are hard to get.

  5. #745
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is not what I said. When you decide to discuss what I actually said, please let me know.
    It is not possible since you keep changing the "rules". You AGREE that public teachers make more than private teachers, then assert that is not a FAIR public/private comparsion because private teachers are underpaid. It is not possible, in your mind, that private teachers are correctly paid but that public teachers are overpaid (but ONLY because YOU say so).

    So you want to compare public teachers pay to other (as yet unnamed) private "comparable" positions based on the number of years of education (but not in the same fields of study) that have entirely different work schedules. Then you say that is not fair either because the "comparable" public teacher education is somehow "continuing education" making public teachers no longer comparable to whatever you were comparing them to (again, as yet unnamed). Please start with SPECIFICALLY what a public teacher's pay is comparable to in the private world, then MAYBE I can see what you are talking about.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is not possible since you keep changing the "rules". You AGREE that public teachers make more than private teachers, then assert that is not a FAIR public/private comparsion because private teachers are underpaid. It is not possible, in your mind, that private teachers are correctly paid but that public teachers are overpaid (but ONLY because YOU say so).

    So you want to compare public teachers pay to other (as yet unnamed) private "comparable" positions based on the number of years of education (but not in the same fields of study) that have entirely different work schedules. Then you say that is not fair either because the "comparable" public teacher education is somehow "continuing education" making public teachers no longer comparable to whatever you were comparing them to (again, as yet unnamed). Please start with SPECIFICALLY what a public teacher's pay is comparable to in the private world, then MAYBE I can see what you are talking about.
    Depends on the private schools and the teacher, but if they do, would that mean public schools pay too much or private schools too little?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #747
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Its not arbitrary. If I'm using my property to create a product and pay the workers that work for me the profits of such an venture go to me as I'm putting in all the capital. The workers are putting in labor to the equation and putting zero personal capital up for risk. They have no claims to capital that comes out.
    You're still just stating what the current rule, or at least what the right would ideally like the current rule to be, is. You aren't considering whether that is the optimal rule. Risk isn't the only thing that warrants a return. Work is as well. When you give workers more of a stake, they work harder. How many people are willing to put in an 80 hour week for a chance at a $1,000 a year raise at the end of the year? Now, how many are willing to if they get a percentage of the profits?

    Let me give you a personal example. I used to work in software. The company was paid on a fixed fee per-project basis. I generated something around $1 million a year in profits for the company working about 50 hours. Now, I could have worked 80 hours a week and generated $1.6 million a year. But what's in it for me? At most, I would have increased my raise by maybe $5k/year. Now, say that I got just 10% of the profits I generated. That would have been an increase in my compensation of $160k/year. Would I have worked 80 hours for that? Hell yes. And it would have increased the owner's profits by $440k/year had they set it up that way. Win-win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    And who the hell said the owner is not putting in any labor? Is that really what you believe?
    No. Owners often play dual roles as owners and workers, and they are at least usually compensated accordingly. But, you should distinguish the roles. In a massive corporation they are usually pretty much separated, and in a small company they overlap a lot, but you should still consider how much of their income is coming from working vs. from owning.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  8. #748
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You left out where you proved me wrong.
    Ok, you do realize it is not very difficult for me to include my own quote. You were wrong, and you chose to change explanation. So here is it with my quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You again misrepresent what I said. And you have disproved nothing. If you would like to post an actual quote of mine and address what it actually said, we can continue that way. If not, I am not interested in further discussion with you.
    You want quotes, here you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You have not made that case. On the other hand, I have referenced a large body of evidence above in post $697 that shows "that public school teachers and other government workers have total compensation that is lower—or at least no higher—than that of comparable private-sector workers."
    Then I said ro prove you wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I looked at the research, and it does not say that. It says the benefits covered by private workers is the same as public workers. There is some discussion on how much return you get from their pensions. I would like to see some numbers in that research. How did they calculate the compensation, and then we can evaluate if it is valid.

    That still doesn't change the fact that Using 2007-2008 data, the average "total school-year and summer earned income" for public school teachers was $53,230 . The equivalent for private-school teachers was $39,690. (These are the numbers without compensation, and includes part time) Median US wage is 26K. Still, liberals have no problems with teachers having excellent job security, long vacations and earning 120K with compensation, and still demanding higher salaries.

    Are Public School Teachers Overpaid or Are Private School Teachers Underpaid? - Hit & Run : Reason.com
    and then you responded

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    All you have proven is that non-unionized private school teachers make substandard pay and benefits, far below the average private sector job with comparable education requirements. So you have demonstrated only why we need public unions. Is that the point you were going for?

  9. #749
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Once again you are wrong.

    "While public schools have certain minimum requirements for teachers including certification and specific degrees, private schools have much greater leeway. Therefore, teachers in private schools may not be required to have certifications or specific degrees to teach in their subject areas."

    Teaching at Private Versus Public Schools - Public School Compared to Private School Teaching
    That is the classic argument used to "justify" public teachers getting "super pay", they require SO much more education, far beyond what a private school does. Does it REALLY make sense to require a masters degree to teach 3rd to 6th graders math, science, history or english? Of course not, just as it does not take a mechanical engineer to fix a flat tire, replace a fan belt or change the oil in a car. It is pure puffery, used to justify the unjustifyable.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #750
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is the classic argument used to "justify" public teachers getting "super pay", they require SO much more education, far beyond what a private school does. Does it REALLY make sense to require a masters degree to teach 3rd to 6th graders math, science, history or english? Of course not, just as it does not take a mechanical engineer to fix a flat tire, replace a fan belt or change the oil in a car. It is pure puffery, used to justify the unjustifyable.
    So, a qualified credentialed teacher is not worth more than an unqualifednon-credential teacher?

    Also, there's another question up above.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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