View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
Page 74 of 124 FirstFirst ... 2464727374757684 ... LastLast
Results 731 to 740 of 1237

Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #731
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, that is a bizzaro world interpretation of what I said. What I actually said was, "All you have proven is that non-unionized private school teachers make substandard pay and benefits, far below the average private sector job with comparable education requirements."
    If that was the case, then why would people become private sector teachers? Only terrible students would become private sector teachers, and with terrible teachers no one would ever think about paying for private school. In fact teachers in private schools are better despite the lower pay.

    Why do people accept a 45K wage as a private sector teacher? Because the perks, vacations, benefits is still very good. Public teachers earn much more, and I am asking you. How does it benefit the poor to increase the wage of teachers with compensation from 120K to 150K. They will just experience higher taxes, higher costs, and worse public services.

    There is no evidence of that whatsoever.
    Really, you don't think strong teacher unions will demand 4-6% wage increases each year, pluss extra perks? Like they always have. If they had all the power, I wouldn't be suprised that many teachers would earn 150K compensation in 5 years. How much do you think the poor will earn in 5 years?
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-12-12 at 02:28 AM.

  2. #732
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is not what I said. When you decide to discuss what I actually said, please let me know.
    Oh. come on. You first told that private teachers earn just as much. When I proven you wrong, you didn't apologise. You instead said that the lower wage of private sector show that we need teacher unions.

  3. #733
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Last Seen
    07-19-17 @ 03:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    60,458

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    More is relative. If both are int he higher income brackets, it's doubtful they will even notice it in any realistic way. It would likely have no effect on buying, or hurt their budgets in any tangable way.
    True, but any advantage is worth while to go after.

    However, more basic, no business is better than that businesses workers. That is true whether the service is public or private. It is poor business and poor policy to attack workers too much.
    I'm not attacking them. All I'm doing is putting things in the proper order.

  4. #734
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,552

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm interested to know why you think education level = a certain acceptable wage and when it doesn't there is some reason to be outraged.

    Any answers?
    There aren't any, that is the fatal flaw in that nonsense "comparable" argument. That is the classic argument used to "justify" public teachers getting "super pay", they require SO much education, far beyond what a private school does. Does it REALLY make sense to require a masters degree to teach 3rd to 6th graders math, science, history or english? Of course not, just as it does not take a mechanical engineer to fix a flat tire, replace a fan belt or change the oil in a car. It is pure puffery, used to justify the unjustifyable.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-12-12 at 02:30 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #735
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Oh. come on. You first told that private teachers earn just as much. When I proven you wrong, you didn't apologise. You instead said that the lower wage of private sector show that we need teacher unions.
    You again misrepresent what I said. And you have disproved nothing. If you would like to post an actual quote of mine and address what it actually said, we can continue that way. If not, I am not interested in further discussion with you.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #736
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    True, but any advantage is worth while to go after.



    I'm not attacking them. All I'm doing is putting things in the proper order.
    The second statement was to the thread, to be fair.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #737
    Sage
    teamosil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    05-22-14 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,623

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The workers have no claims to the property. The claims would have to be created out of thin air and bypass the property rights of the owner for your solution. I can't actually believe you think these two things are comparable.
    The claim that the person who puts in money has more of a claim to the profits generate by a business than the people who put in labor is just arbitrary. You're just assuming that because that's how the US is currently set up in general. Most companies in the US do it that way. Many companies choose to share profits more evenly. For example, Starbucks has a profit sharing program. SAIC is employee owned where every employee acquires shares of the company based on the amount of time they work and seniority level. The US gives total control of the board to the investors by law, but many countries split control between investors and employees. For example, in Germany companies have a board that is elected by the investors and a roughly equally powerful committee called the worker's council that is elected by the employees. How that balance is set is arbitrary. You seem to think that setting it to favor the owner in every scenario is "right" because that's what you're used to, not for any immutable reason.

    To be clear, I'm not arguing that the employees should get all the profits or something. Just that there are a million dials that we as a society set either to favor the owners or the employees. In the US we're way out on the pro-owner extreme end of the spectrum. IMO we should reel it in a bit. Assuming you're an employee, I am arguing that you should have a bit more say in your company's decisions. Heck, you probably have better ideas about what the company you work for should be doing than some retiree in Florida who owns a mutual fund and doesn't even know it has shares in your company does, right? Not more than the owner, but a voice on the board to represent your point of view. Companies should aim to attract better employees by offering them a bigger slice of the pie and employees should be more insistent about demanding it and changing companies if they don't get it. Etc. The median productivity of an American worker is an outstanding $97k/year and rising, but the median compensation is a paltry $44k/year and falling. We need to be rethinking the settings on some of the dials we've cranked all the way to "owner". The guy making $18k/year should be making $28k/year and the guy making $180k/year should be making $280k/year. Ultimately our investments would yield more return as well because consumer spending would be boosted up and right now at least, that is what our economy is hurting most for.

    Anyways, the point is that the assumption that however it happens to be at the moment is how it is somehow "supposed" to be is just a simplistic assumption. You shouldn't just take everything for granted like that. You should aim to think about what is the best way to set these rules that we play by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    if people that are right below him get taxed along with him it will hurt them more than it hurts him and thus it works to his advantage.
    See, I knew you had a conspiracy theory worked out. Next time just state your position and quit playing coy.

    Your theory doesn't make sense. Buffett is an investor. He owns shares in the same companies the folks right below him do.
    Last edited by teamosil; 06-12-12 at 02:39 AM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  8. #738
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    If that was the case, then why would people become private sector teachers?
    Because they are not willing to achieve the education standards required in public schools in most cases.
    Last edited by Catawba; 06-12-12 at 02:36 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #739
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You again misrepresent what I said. And you have disproved nothing. If you would like to post an actual quote of mine and address what it actually said, we can continue that way. If not, I am not interested in further discussion with you.
    You want quotes, here you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You have not made that case. On the other hand, I have referenced a large body of evidence above in post $697 that shows "that public school teachers and other government workers have total compensation that is lower—or at least no higher—than that of comparable private-sector workers."
    Then I prove you wrong, and you said

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    All you have proven is that non-unionized private school teachers make substandard pay and benefits, far below the average private sector job with comparable education requirements. So you have demonstrated only why we need public unions. Is that the point you were going for?

  10. #740
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Because they are not willing to achieve the education standards required in public schools in most cases.


    The education standards in American public schools are horrible. Private schools tend to be much better, because parents pay for their children education, and will pull their kids out if the school is substandard,

Page 74 of 124 FirstFirst ... 2464727374757684 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •