View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #711
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I don't agree with the idea of profit sharing and would never support forcing employers to take part in such.

    And I'm not assuming anything. It is there money and as such its their property. No matter what excuse you make on some sort of labor effort standard that you believe is needed it makes no difference to that fact. Sorry, but fairness bull**** falls on deaf ears here.
    You aren't following. You say "It is there money and as such its their property", but if we had a different system where somebody else got the money instead of them, then it would be that other person's property... All you're saying is that you think the owner should get it because he does get it. That justification would work for any possible system equally well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why would a man like Buffet want his taxes raised. Liberals assume its because he simply thinks he is paying to little, but that is stupid talk and Buffet is not stupid. What advantages does he gain if the people around him are taxed more? Want to take a guess?
    There really is no way I could guess what conspiracy theory you've cooked up...
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well teachers are a significant slice of the middle class. So increasing their income directly increases the income of the middle class. It's also a sort of job that educated people can try for everywhere in the country. Lots of times it is one of the few decent jobs in small towns for example. But, indirectly, and probably more importantly, the higher teacher pay is, the higher quality candidates will go into it, the better our education is, which raises everybody up.



    Most teachers, or at least most new teachers, have master's degrees. They make way, way, less than the average person with a master's degree.
    While a teacher may have a masters degree, what FIELD is that master degree in? Is that "comparable" job even available in Podunk, where they live at 1/2 (or less) the cost of a major city? Using only NATIONAL numbers makes that a silly comparison. Every town, county and city has a school, not every place ALSO has that "comparable" job, that OTHER job may require moving to an area with 2x or 3x the cost of living, so it IS a big factor, to be considered. That "comparable" job also requires working about 500 hours/year more than the teaching job does too. The nonsense, that you started with, that the "best and brightest" go into teaching, to justify their much higher pay for many less work hours, is also BS.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-12-12 at 01:44 AM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You have not made that case. On the other hand, I have referenced a large body of evidence above in post $697 that shows "that public school teachers and other government workers have total compensation that is lower—or at least no higher—than that of comparable private-sector workers."
    I looked at the research, and it does not say that. It says the benefits covered by private workers is the same as public workers. There is some discussion on how much return you get from their pensions. I would like to see some numbers in that research. How did they calculate the compensation, and then we can evaluate if it is valid.

    That still doesn't change the fact that Using 2007-2008 data, the average "total school-year and summer earned income" for public school teachers was $53,230 . The equivalent for private-school teachers was $39,690. (These are the numbers without compensation, and includes part time) Median US wage is 26K. Still, liberals have no problems with teachers having excellent job security, long vacations and earning 120K with compensation, and still demanding higher salaries.

    Are Public School Teachers Overpaid or Are Private School Teachers Underpaid? - Hit & Run : Reason.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Changing goalposts? OK, but you still have to prove your new premise that teachers are rich compared to other private sector jobs with comparable education levels.
    Just proved it. But we don't have to adjust for wage level, or the same profession. In terms on income inequality, it doesn't matter. I'm asking you again. How do we decrease income inequality by increasing the wage of the ones who earn significantly more than average?

    Are you a believer in trickle down economics?
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-12-12 at 01:46 AM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, let's explore that path. First of all, teachers work about 500 hours per year less than other "comparable" full time postitions, so to start with, lets take 3/4 of that "comparable" other annual salary as being "even".
    My mom was an elementary school teacher. She worked 10 to 12 hour days M-F and maybe 5 hours on each weekend day during the school year and then she volunteered for various projects over the summer. Usually she'd take a couple weeks off at each end of the summer, but other than that she'd be working all summer. And four weeks is about the same vacation most jobs get. During the summer she'd probably work more like 30 hours a week, but when you average in the 60+ hour weeks during the school year, she was still well ahead of the norm for most jobs.

    She won a teacher of the year award for the state, but she turned it down because she didn't want to be the center of attention and she thought she didn't deserve it more than any other teachers. She developed a reading curriculum that has been written about in education magazines maybe 10 times and which 2 people have done their Phd. dissertations on since it was so successful. A number of school districts around the country adopted it. She had a master's degree plus 45 credits and by the time she retired, she had 33 years of teaching experience. She always chose to work at the toughest school. The school never had enough money for much supplies, so she typically spent between $3,000 and $5,000 a year out of pocket buying jackets for kids that didn't have them, books for the classroom, software, math puzzle games, etc.

    When she retired maybe 8 years ago now she was making $41k/year.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Why do you suppose that teachers choose to teach? Are they not "smart" enough to see that SAME education would earn them far more money in another job? Just what makes them choose the "least possible return" on their educational investment? Perhaps job stability and earlier retirement, coupled with working less hours per year, IS a factor. Hmm...
    Of course they're smart enough to realize they could make more money elsewhere. In my experience most teachers are teachers instead of doing something that makes more money because they want to help kids and help their communities.
    Last edited by teamosil; 06-12-12 at 01:52 AM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You aren't following. You say "It is there money and as such its their property", but if we had a different system where somebody else got the money instead of them, then it would be that other person's property... All you're saying is that you think the owner should get it because he does get it. That justification would work for any possible system equally well.
    And if someone owns a business the only way they wouldn't get the money is if the government forced it to someone else. The legitimate source of the money hasn't changed so the point is nothing but invalid.

    There really is no way I could guess what conspiracy theory you've cooked up...
    Conspiracy theory? Answer the question. What is the gains an extremely rich man gets when the people right below him are taxed along with him? I'm using a liberal talking point here so answer it your normal way.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I looked at the research, and it does not say that. It says the benefits covered by private workers is the same as public workers. There is some discussion on how much return you get from their pensions. I would like to see some numbers in that research. How did they calculate the compensation, and then we can evaluate if it is valid.

    That still doesn't change the fact that Using 2007-2008 data, the average "total school-year and summer earned income" for public school teachers was $53,230 . The equivalent for private-school teachers was $39,690. (These are the numbers without compensation, and includes part time) Median US wage is 26K. Still, liberals have no problems with teachers earning 120K with compensation and still demanding higher salaries.

    Are Public School Teachers Overpaid or Are Private School Teachers Underpaid? - Hit & Run : Reason.com
    All you have proven is that non-unionized private school teachers make substandard pay and benefits, far below the average private sector job with comparable education requirements. So you have demonstrated only why we need public unions. Is that the point you were going for?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    While a teacher may have a masters degree, what FIELD is that master degree in?
    That just begs the question. Education degrees lead to lower salaries because teachers get paid less.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Is that "comparable" job even available in Podunk, where they live at 1/2 (or less) the cost of a major city? Using only NATIONAL numbers makes that a silly comparison. Every town, county and city has a school, not every place ALSO has that "comparable" job, that OTHER job may require moving to an area with 2x or 3x the cost of living, so it IS a big factor, to be considered.
    Yeah, that's true. I made that same point. But, that's a positive. We want some decent jobs in small towns, right? Teaching salaries vary dramatically based on the cost of living, but in general keeping at least some opportunities in small towns is certainly a positive thing for the country, right?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    All you have proven is that non-unionized private school teachers make substandard pay and benefits, far below the average private sector job with comparable education requirements. So you have demonstrated only why we need public unions. Is that the point you were going for?
    I'm interested to know why you think education level = a certain acceptable wage and when it doesn't there is some reason to be outraged.

    Any answers?
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-12-12 at 01:52 AM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am married to a retired school teacher and know that a teacher works far beyond their contract, not to mention the continuing education requirements that most other jobs do not require. So sorry, that doesn't hold water.
    Since you mentioned retired, at what age did that retirement occur? I know many gov't employees that "retire" at age 50 to 55, yet NONE that retire that young in those "comparable" jobs. In fact, IRS does not even allow a private 401K to be used (without a tax penalty) until at least age 59 1/2. Hmm...
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    And if someone owns a business the only way they wouldn't get the money is if the government forced it to someone else. The legitimate source of the money hasn't changed so the point is nothing but invalid.
    Well the government is "forcing" the money to go to him currently. Same difference. The law says that the owner gets the money. No different from the law saying that the owner and the employees share the profits. For example, in the US, the law says that in a public corporation the owners have to be the ones that elect the board of directors. It could just as easily say that the board should be elected by a combination of the owners and the employees. That is no more or less force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Conspiracy theory? Answer the question. What is the gains an extremely rich man gets when the people right below him are taxed along with him? I'm using a liberal talking point here so answer it your normal way.
    If you have a conspiracy theory, just lay it out. I think that he believes that the rich should pay more taxes because it is obvious that the rich should pay more taxes.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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