View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
Page 71 of 124 FirstFirst ... 2161697071727381121 ... LastLast
Results 701 to 710 of 1237

Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #701
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Catawba: I realize you are trying to be difficult, but I can go around that.

    Lets talk about sectors instead. How does it benefit the poor to make rich teachers richer? I can easily document that teachers earn significantly more than the average in the US. And especially in some states.

  2. #702
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    In reality, you know public sector unions earn substantially more than US average.
    You have not made that case. On the other hand, I have referenced a large body of evidence above in post $697 that shows "that public school teachers and other government workers have total compensation that is lower—or at least no higher—than that of comparable private-sector workers."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #703
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,551

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "This finding, and previous research by the same authors (Biggs and Richwine 2011), are at odds with a large body of research showing that public school teachers and other government workers have total compensation that is lower—or at least no higher—than that of comparable private-sector workers (see, for example, Allegretto, Corcoran, and Mishel 2004, 2008, 2011; Bender and Heywood 2010; Keefe 2010; Munnell et al. 2011; Schmitt 2010). Furthermore, the “teaching penalty” has grown, as teachers’ and other public-sector workers’ pay has declined relative to that of comparable private-sector workers (Allegretto, Corcoran, and Mishel 2008, 2011; Bender and Heywood 2010).

    Do public school teachers really receive lavish benefits?: Richwine and Biggs
    WOW. Babble about trends. I included that FACT along with my TEACHER PAY data, and noted that the gap was, in fact, closing but that escaped you, some how, too. One HUGE factor NOT taken into account in these "wonder studies" is stability; the personnel turnover rate in public jobs is WAY under that of private, requiring less moves. Over 90% of public employees retire at an average age of 54, where for private employees that is virtually unheard of. Clever cherry picking of "good" vs. "bad" points of different things can "prove" almost anything, please do not try to change the subject like this. Stick to teachers, as you started out with; compare public and private teachers' pay/benefits. These other professions have almost NO union involvement either, the topic of discussion at hand, remember?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #704
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Catawba: I realize you are trying to be difficult, but I can go around that.

    Lets talk about sectors instead. How does it benefit the poor to make rich teachers richer? I can easily document that teachers earn significantly more than the average in the US. And especially in some states.

    Changing goalposts? OK, but you still have to prove your new premise that teachers are rich compared to other private sector jobs with comparable education levels.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #705
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,551

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Seriously? You are now the emperor with no clothes.

    In reality, you know public sector unions earn substantially more than US average. I have given very specific evidence for that. There is only one reason you are denying it. You are desperate. You are completely unable to respond to my arguments, and instead you deny facts that everyone knows is true.

    You are a believer in trickle down economics. However, you believe in a liberal version of it. That increase union wages for the rich, will increase wages for everyone.
    Sure they can, just include CEOs and compare them to congressional/SES pay and poof, it is "proved"! LOL
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #706
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    WOW. Babble about trends. I included that FACT along with my TEACHER PAY data, and noted that the gap was, in fact, closing but that escaped you, some how, too. One HUGE factor NOT taken into account in these "wonder studies" is stability; the personnel turnover rate in public jobs is WAY under that of private, requiring less moves. Over 90% of public employees retire at an average age of 54, where for private employees that is virtually unheard of. Clever cherry picking of "good" vs. "bad" points of different things can "prove" almost anything, please do not try to change the subject like this. Stick to teachers, as you started out with; compare public and private teachers' pay/benefits. These other professions have almost NO union involvement either, the topic of discussion at hand, remember?
    When you make substandard pay with little benefits compared with the rest of the private sector with comparable education, you can't afford to retire. That makes a good case for why we need public unions however.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #707
    Sage
    teamosil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    05-22-14 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,623

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Lets talk about sectors instead. How does it benefit the poor to make rich teachers richer?
    Well teachers are a significant slice of the middle class. So increasing their income directly increases the income of the middle class. It's also a sort of job that educated people can try for everywhere in the country. Lots of times it is one of the few decent jobs in small towns for example. But, indirectly, and probably more importantly, the higher teacher pay is, the higher quality candidates will go into it, the better our education is, which raises everybody up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I can easily document that teachers earn significantly more than the average in the US. And especially in some states.
    Most teachers, or at least most new teachers, have master's degrees. They make way, way, less than the average person with a master's degree.
    Last edited by teamosil; 06-12-12 at 01:27 AM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  8. #708
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,551

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Changing goalposts? OK, but you still have to prove your new premise that teachers are rich compared to other private sector jobs with comparable education levels.
    OK, let's explore that path. First of all, teachers work about 500 hours per year less than other "comparable" full time postitions, so to start with, lets take 3/4 of that "comparable" other annual salary as being "even". Why do you suppose that teachers choose to teach? Are they not "smart" enough to see that SAME education would earn them far more money in another job? Just what makes them choose the "least possible return" on their educational investment? Perhaps job stability and earlier retirement, coupled with working less hours per year, IS a factor. Hmm...
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-12-12 at 01:29 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #709
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Last Seen
    07-19-17 @ 03:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    60,458

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    What you're doing is just what is called "begging the question". You're assuming your premise in order to prove it. If we had a different sort of a system, say companies with profit sharing programs, then you would feel that the employees had earned those profits too. You just are assuming that whoever is collecting the money is the one earning it. That isn't an argument against a system where the earnings go to the people who work for them rather than the owners.
    I don't agree with the idea of profit sharing and would never support forcing employers to take part in such.

    And I'm not assuming anything. It is there money and as such its their property. No matter what excuse you make on some sort of labor effort standard that you believe is needed it makes no difference to that fact. Sorry, but fairness bull**** falls on deaf ears here.

    Oh course. Why?
    Why would a man like Buffet want his taxes raised. Liberals assume its because he simply thinks he is paying to little, but that is stupid talk and Buffet is not stupid. What advantages does he gain if the people around him are taxed more? Want to take a guess?

  10. #710
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, let's explore that path. First of all, teachers work about 500 hours per year less than other "comparable" full time postitions, so to start with, lets take 3/4 of that "comparable" other annual salary as being "even". Why do you suppose that teachers choose to teach? Are they not "smart" enough to see that SAME education would earn them far more money in another job? Just what makes them choose the "least possible return" on their educational investment? Perhaps job stability and earlier retirement, coupled with working less hours per year, IS a factor. Hmm...
    I am married to a retired school teacher and know that a teacher works far beyond their contract, not to mention the continuing education requirements that most other jobs do not require. So sorry, that doesn't hold water.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •