View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #61
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    for exercising my right to join/form a union? i don't think so.....you want to fire me, do it for a legitimate reason...like i don't show up for work on a regular basis, i constantly do a piss poor job , produce piss poor quality, constantly not performing my job in a safe manner, causing safety concerns for my fellow employees....for joining a union? i don't think so.
    As a free man you have the right to form a union. And I as a free man have the right to fire you for doing so. The fact of the matter is, you have no right to work for me. I hire you because I need or want to pay for your services. If you are going to be a pain in my ass and form a union, I have every right to fire you. Truth is, I dont need a reason to fire you, just as you dont need a reason to quit.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Don't all unions get involved? And don't employers and othe rinterest groups? What separates public unions as different?
    Public unions negotiate and try and dictate to the government, which is funded by taxpayers and public funds. Private sector unions negotiate and try to dictate with private entities, which are funded by the market and consumers and are subject to the market and consumers.

    It also seems that private entities exist to turn a profit and thus must manage funds wisely. Government does not exist to do so and public entities are extremely inefficiency and wasteful in financial resources. The structure of public and private entities are different as is their funding. Thus, unions representing employees should also be different with different degrees of power especially considering that one entity is linked to public funds paid into them by taxpayers.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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  3. #63
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You do not have a right to someone else's money. If you decide not to pay someone else for your labor anymore (so long as there are no contractual obligations delineating specifics on this procedure), then you have the right to cease doing so. You do not have a right to come demand that I give you $20 for which you will mow my lawn, and if you have been mowing my lawn, past performance does not give you the right to demand that I continue to do so. I have the right to tell you I wish to now do it myself, or pay the neighbors kid to do it instead. to
    huh? what in the hell are you blathering about?

  4. #64
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    huh? what in the hell are you blathering about?
    It is perfectly understandable to us who don't think we have a right to someone else's private property.

  5. #65
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    As a free man you have the right to form a union. And I as a free man have the right to fire you for doing so. The fact of the matter is, you have no right to work for me. I hire you because I need or want to pay for your services. If you are going to be a pain in my ass and form a union, I have every right to fire you. Truth is, I dont need a reason to fire you, just as you dont need a reason to quit.
    no, no you don't have that right. in a non-union shop, you are correct, you don't need a reason..in a union shop, with a contract, with a grievance procedure, you need a legitimate reason, and if you can make your case, then yes, you can still be rid of me. like i said before, those reasons being poor work, not showing up for work, coming in late or leaving early constantly....poor quality, creating safety hazards to myself or others...but for joining a union? no, no you do not have that right.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Helping ensure safe worker environments mainly. Now they are too large, demand too many benefits, and wast tax payer money while restricting worker freedom (especially in non-right to work states). I think they also cause government to run inefficiently and keep crappy employees employed on the government's dime.
    I don't think safe work environments are the main thing that public employee unions accomplish. For example, if a School Board or Mayor decide that they don't want to be held accountable for low test scores and would rather scapegoat teachers as the cause for such scores, then they can tie teacher evaluations directly to student scores without accounting for the factors outside teachers' control that affect test scores like environment and adequate textbooks and supplies in schools. In order to prevent this, teacher's unions step in and make sure that teacher evaluations account for all the factors outside of a teacher's control that impact a student's test scores.

    That's important and necessary for several reasons: it ensures that teachers are fairly evaluated only for things within their control, it ensures that the School Board is also held accountable for things in it's control and it enables the School Board, teachers, public and whoever else to pinpoint all the factors that are contributing to low test scores within the district. Public sector employers are more than capable of harming the public sector employees and the public. Unions offset that when they're doing their job.

    I also don't think unions restrict worker freedom. Workers are free to not work in unionized environments.

  7. #67
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    no, no you don't have that right. in a non-union shop, you are correct, you don't need a reason..in a union shop, with a contract, with a grievance procedure, you need a legitimate reason, and if you can make your case, then yes, you can still be rid of me. like i said before, those reasons being poor work, not showing up for work, coming in late or leaving early constantly....poor quality, creating safety hazards to myself or others...but for joining a union? no, no you do not have that right.
    Many lefties (or lefties pretending to be "centrists") have a very dim understanding of what a RIGHT is

    a right is the ability to do something and not be persecuted by the government. A right is NOT an affirmative duty on someone else to act. You have a right to worship Ba'al, Buddha, Jesus, Lucifer or Eric Clapton but I don't have the duty to build you a temple. You have a right to keep and bear arms but I should't be taxed to supply you won

    and you have a right to join a union but your employer should not have duty to give you a job if you do so

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    That's my main problem with public sector unions. They are very much involved in politics and try to gain support from elected officials via donations and other incentives. It's corrupt and should not go on. I also don't believe a body like a public sector union should be able to essentially apportion government funds they way they do through their negotiations.
    I don't understand your point. If public sector unions did not get involved in politics, then the government would just be able to treat it's employees however it wants to which means that public sector employees are just supposed to take what they're given and shut up. That can't be what you're advocating.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Helping ensure safe worker environments mainly. Now they are too large, demand too many benefits, and wast tax payer money while restricting worker freedom (especially in non-right to work states). I think they also cause government to run inefficiently and keep crappy employees employed on the government's dime.
    That's private sector unions, although OSHA has power over non-union shops as well.

    In the public sector, employees are bound by state and local laws covering safety concerns, etc. Both public and private unions have seniority clauses in nearly all contracts that prohibit or severely restrict layoff or termination based upon a merit system. Therefore, good employees with excellent work records must be laid off instead of more senior employees with poor work records. If private companies are okay with that, it's no skin off my nose. But when the public sector is bound by seniority-over-merit requirements, then it's lots of skin off my nose because I am paying to keep lousy employees while watching good employees go somewhere else.

  10. #70
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    That's private sector unions, although OSHA has power over non-union shops as well.

    In the public sector, employees are bound by state and local laws covering safety concerns, etc. Both public and private unions have seniority clauses in nearly all contracts that prohibit or severely restrict layoff or termination based upon a merit system. Therefore, good employees with excellent work records must be laid off instead of more senior employees with poor work records. If private companies are okay with that, it's no skin off my nose. But when the public sector is bound by seniority-over-merit requirements, then it's lots of skin off my nose because I am paying to keep lousy employees while watching good employees go somewhere else.
    I agree, and I've known several people in my life who have had to suffer due to this. I am from Maryland around the DC area so I know a lot of people who worked for the government (my dad worked for the government too at one time). We have a family friend that works for the FDA and he had a unionized secretary. She was African American (which also made her harder to fir) and lazy as dirt. He could never get her to do anything and she sat in a swirly chair all day and talked with friends on the phone. He complained about her and demanded that she be fired many times and provided proof of her laziness. The union would not let the employer fire her or dismiss her. After about 6 months she was no longer the secretary, and this was because she was promoted to another department... Stuff like this makes me livid and also wastes tax payer money.
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