View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #621
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Whats interesting is theres alot of parents that cant wait for their kids to get to school so they dont have to be bothered with them...and then theres the teacher that has 30 or more of them to deal with all day long....and as well as guarding them and disciplining them and keeping them in line FOR THE PARENTS...they also have to teach them....yeah its a worthless job and just anyone can do it...<smirk>
    There will always be unions because there will always be working people assaulted by the conservatives for something, anything.
    Its gotten to the point of being beyond pathetic. I hope they not only continue but kick it up...then more and more will realize how far off the edge theyve gone
    aye, teachers have a difficult job, and often thankless.... and yes , there are parents who do relish the idea of a babysitter taking care of that kid for 6 hours a day.

    I'm not sure what a union does that affects that though, and i'm not sure their work environment would change much at all if public sector unions were to disappear.
    try as I might, I just can't envision a work environment that would change much from their current one...don't see cops or firefighters being "exploited" either.

  2. #622
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    from Centinel

    Or would you prefer that your children and grandchildren are granted only those rights that society deigns to allow?
    that is called reality. It is the way it always has been and always will be. If the society you live in does not demand from the government that you have a specific right they want to have - they you do NOT have it.

    Again, that is basic reality and the way of the world.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #623
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun View Post
    Dude, are you seriously telling me that corporate culture has the best interests of employees in mind regardless of profits?
    I'm telling you that it was growing trend in the market before the unions ever thought of it.

  4. #624
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Thats the problem legitimate victims face every time...they have to climb the mountain of suspicion..its unfair but there so many bogus claims that it makes it hard to determine sometimes truth from fiction.

    very true, and often the investigators have become cynical and burned out. And something I know you have seen are DV complaints. A girl I used to date called me one day and asked me to come up to the court house for an arraignment. her best friend had the absolute crap beaten out of her by her boyfriend. So I showed up at the arraignment. I told the DA i was here on behalf of the victim. I sat there as she told the detectives what happened. So they bind the mope over to a GJ. I walk her to the GJ but of course I don't go in. The DA comes out pissed-saying she refuses to testify. So I tell her she has to. She doesn't. I tell the cops I am as pissed as they are. but the DA drops the case even though the girl's nose and jaw had been broken. Sure enough a month later the mope beats her bad-she's in the ICU. This time the same detectives don't seem too keen to arrest the guy figuring she would bail again. She whines to me. I said-I TOLD YOU SO. I go to the DA -I knew him well. He has the guy arrested on a felony assault warrant. Fortunately, there was a witness, the GJ indicts on that testimony The mope pleads out and gets 18 Months. The girl is mad that lover boy is going upstate to the pen.

    yeah I have had people complain that cops don't take DV cases seriously. BUt I have seen this scenario repeated dozens of times.

  5. #625
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Exactly, hence overpaying them means less public services for a higher price. Because people don't want to pay higher taxes to pay bloated public sector wages, then quality and the number of services drop.

    I actually think if we are going to play the correlation means causation game, then lets take a look at public union membership and earnings.

    When public union membership goes up, wages go down. I mean correlation means causation right?
    Your graph doesn't say that public union membership is going up, it says that the PERCENTAGE of people in unions that are in the public sector is getting larger. That's not necessarily because there are more people in public sector unions, it could also be (and probably is) because of the dramatic drop in private sector union membership.

    The notion that public sector incomes are bloated is absurd. We've just gone through and shown how teachers with master's degrees make just over half as much as people with master's degrees in the public sector. The same pattern (or worse) plays out in most sectors. For example, I'm in law school, so I'm very attuned to salaries lawyers make in the public and private sector. A job as a lawyer working for the DOJ is generally harder to get than jobs at any firm, but firms start you at $160k + a fat bonus, where the DOJ starts you at $110k with no bonus. Worse still, at the firm your compensation rapidly shoots up. If you put in 8 years and become a partner, you're most likely making over a million, but after 10 years in the DOJ you're still probably down around $140k.

    But just think about it. Of course having strong unions means higher wages for everybody. That's what they do. Even for companies that aren't unionized, the employer knows that they need to compete with employers with unions on salaries. All employers in states where they have strong unions know that if they try to screw the employees over too badly, they might unionize. It's a check on the worst abuses across the board for everybody. Just look at the differences in median income between "right to work" states and states where you can have an effective union. It's about a $10k/year difference. That's the only reason the right hates unions- because they lead to higher wages, which they see as a hindrance to profits for the rich.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  6. #626
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is a good slogan but what is your solution to the concept of competition? If a chinese worker can do the same work as an American worker but yet demands one fourth the wage how can a company that uses American Labor compete?
    Out innovate them just like we used to do before the GOP tax cuts for outsourcing. Why do you think it is right to make the working class in this country suffer to increase competition while the fat cats are raking in record wealth?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #627
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Your graph doesn't say that public union membership is going up, it says that the PERCENTAGE of people in unions that are in the public sector is getting larger. That's not necessarily because there are more people in public sector unions, it could also be (and probably is) because of the dramatic drop in private sector union membership.
    All right, so that means when the percentage of people in public union increases, then wages go down? That doesn't sound well for public sector unions.

    The notion that public sector incomes are bloated is absurd. We've just gone through and shown how teachers with master's degrees make just over half as much as people with master's degrees in the public sector. The same pattern (or worse) plays out in most sectors. For example, I'm in law school, so I'm very attuned to salaries lawyers make in the public and private sector. A job as a lawyer working for the DOJ is generally harder to get than jobs at any firm, but firms start you at $160k + a fat bonus, where the DOJ starts you at $110k with no bonus. Worse still, at the firm your compensation rapidly shoots up. If you put in 8 years and become a partner, you're most likely making over a million, but after 10 years in the DOJ you're still probably down around $140k.
    So? How many people can get those kind of jobs? Average median salary for law graduates is 62K. And thats a hard degree. But we need to look at what is an overpaid job. If the private market would pay for instance a garbage man 100K USD, then it is fine if the government pays 100K. If the private market would only pay 40K, then a person who earns 100K for a similar job is overpaid.

    Among teachers, especially in some states, earnings are considerably better in public sector than private sector.

    But just think about it. Of course having strong unions means higher wages for everybody. That's what they do. Even for companies that aren't unionized, the employer knows that they need to compete with employers with unions on salaries. .
    That point is right, but funny enough you forgot about one group. The poor.

    The poor can not compete with public sector wages, so their wages won't go up. They will just see their costs and taxes will go up. Also, the quality of public sector services will drop. Public Sector unions make poor poorer.

    All employers in states where they have strong unions know that if they try to screw the employees over too badly, they might unionize. It's a check on the worst abuses across the board for everybody. Just look at the differences in median income between "right to work" states and states where you can have an effective union. It's about a $10k/year difference. That's the only reason the right hates unions- because they lead to higher wages, which they see as a hindrance to profits for the rich
    Unlike you, I actually did. Here
    http://voices.yahoo.com/richest-poor...774.html?cat=3

    Top union states:
    New York: 42
    Hawaii: 49
    Alaska: 23
    Washington: 8
    Michigan: 27
    California: 38

    Average: 31.16. Hence unions states are poorer than non-unions states. And this is by median household income.

    Also, the income adjusted poverty rate is highest in California and New York. Which support my point that unions make poor poorer.
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-11-12 at 11:02 PM.

  8. #628
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I don't think that that's an actual notion outside of your imagination. Most of them are middle class as I've always argued.


    Their environment would be pretty horrible. Teachers would have much larger class sizes, would be held accountable for things outside of their control, would work in less safe environments and so on. Firefighters and police officers would be cut and have to cover more area per person. They would also lose healthcare benefits, be held accountable for things outside of their control and so on.

    I always laugh at the notion that only the private sector is willing and able to take advantage of its workers and that public workers don't have to worry about things like that. It's even more funny when it comes from conservatives and libertarians who apparently don't trust the government. If they don't trust the government, then it should be pretty easy to see how the government could exploit its workers. I guess they see what they want to see. It's too bad that what they want to see leads to the exploitation of workers and harm to the public.
    but yet "liberals" ,who trust the government, are the ones who push unions incessantly... funny how that work out eh?

    but yeah, I do tend to view folks as rational actors.. even folks in government.
    not so rational in in their relationships with their subjects ( the citizens), but surely rational with their relationships with their own.
    that may be an erred view, I admit... but it's one I tend to own.

    unions do not control the amount of workers to be employed... so the argument that cops and firefighters is a bit specious.... as is the argument that they would lose healthcare benefits... and being held accountable for things beyond their control.... there are tons and tons of workers in those same governments who are not unionized, yet they don't seem to be exploited in any manner you profess.... how can that be?

    I can see how they affect things like covering more area per person and class size though (those problems are easily rectified through internal regulation or legislation)

  9. #629
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Out innovate them just like we used to do before the GOP tax cuts for outsourcing. Why do you think it is right to make the working class in this country suffer to increase competition while the fat cats are raking in record wealth?
    Nice evasion which I have come to expect from you. but the fact is, in many areas, innovation is not going to make up for the massive overpricing of American labor. And if a "fat cat" can hire a very skilled Chinese laborer for one fifth of what you cost, why should he hire you? and that Chinese laborer isn't voting for people who are going to jack up that "fat cat's" taxes like you are. You see, hiring Union labor that is overpriced not only hurts the competitive ability of the company, it also is counterproductive given that unions funnel money towards the parasites who often want the company to be taxed even more

  10. #630
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    [QUOTE=Catawba;1060583297]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenn View Post


    LOL! Evidently, you do not understand that derivatives were not an issue before deregulation removed the firewall that separated investment banks and commercial banks.

    Well, sh*t! I have no excuse except I had been spending some time with Tom Collins!

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