View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #571
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Baloney. If somebody works under contract which renews and continues over a thirty or forty year period equating to a pension - then that pension is a sacred contract.
    We agree! I never said otherwise. Read more carefully, Haymarket. If the contract is changed after five years, so be it. The amount that was actuarily needed to fund that pension each of the five years accrues to the employee. And the new deal is then in place. Pension contract law. Read it.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I'd like to say differently but unions are getting crushed.

    For people that think "Unions have lived past their usefulness"....you'll be able to test that theory. It's interesting this idea that all those laws that people bled and died for can't be rolled back...
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    EVERYONE: Please read this post from Henrin. Then read it again. Then read it again. Pay attention to every word he wrote.

    The next time anybody identifies themselves or their ideas as LIBERTARIAN - remember this post. Remember what is behind it. Remember the type of society that this sort of ideological madness would produce.

    Ask yourself is that the type of society I want to both live in and work in? Is that the sort of society you want your children and grandchildren to live in and work in?
    one in which no one has the right to someone else's stuff? Yeah, I'll take that.

    Do we want a libertarian based society where you have a pension after thirty years but hardly anyone ever gets the thirty years in a job because they can get fired at 29 years, 11 months and 29 days because there is no loyalty and no union and no contract rights and no low to support you?
    It doesn't matter. We live in a world where the average length of time spent at a job is about 3 years. Unions failure to adapt to the changes in the workplace is one of the many reasons why they are dying. We also live in a world where defined-benefits plans have proven too unwieldy and expensive to maintain, and so we are switching to defined-contribution plans; which means for your employer, having an employee that has been with them for 29 years and 6 months is no different than an employee that has been with them for 30 years and 6 months, creating no fiscal demand for firing one or the other except their job performance.

    Recognize the enemy.
    Oh, I'm pretty sure I've got him about marked. It's a pretty easy test, you see. We are headed straight towards a fiscal cliff. States, Localities, even our Federal government face very real threats to our solvency. Anyone with their foot on the gas? That's the enemy . Fortunately (see OP), one of them appears to be getting cut back down to size. Let us hope we are still in time.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-11-12 at 06:08 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Only 11% of the US population are in unions (public and private), so it only makes sense to make them the scapegoats for the bad economy caused by deregulation of the banking industry. It makes perfect sense.................to the GOP.

    Its known as sleight of hand. Some fall for it and some don't.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Could you please answer the question: do you support the honoring of the contracts that have been in place between the legally constituted representatives of the American people and the people contracted to work for them - having fulfilled and met their obligations over thirty or forty years of employment?
    The Constitution is not a suicide pact. Government is under no obligation to wreck the citizenry for the good of itself. And given that public unions were sitting at both ends of the table, and negotiating benefits of which we never had any chance of paying, I don't terribly see that they were negotiated in good faith to begin with
    .

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'd like to say differently but unions are getting crushed.

    For people that think "Unions have lived past their usefulness"....you'll be able to test that theory. It's interesting this idea that all those laws that people bled and died for can't be rolled back...


    " First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."


    - Martin Niemöller
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Only 11% of the US population are in unions (public and private), so it only makes sense to make them the scapegoats for the bad economy caused by deregulation of the banking industry. It makes perfect sense.................to the GOP.

    Its known as sleight of hand. Some fall for it and some don't.

    With the exception of what happened to the automakers, I don't think anyone has blamed "unions" for the bad economy. We simply point out that Public Sector Unions have faced no effective check on their extraction, which has now grown to levels where it threatens the solvency of our State and Local governments.

    Nor is this a "GOP" thing. Democrat governors and mayors are having to trim back on the Public Unions too. Just, oddly, no outrage...... :

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    We agree! I never said otherwise. Read more carefully, Haymarket. If the contract is changed after five years, so be it. The amount that was actuarily needed to fund that pension each of the five years accrues to the employee. And the new deal is then in place. Pension contract law. Read it.
    Maggie - could you please clarify something for me?

    If a worker puts in the required time to earn a pension, then retires under the terms of their employment contract, do YOU favor looking upon that as a sacred contract which CANNOT be changed or are you saying it can be changed even after one party has fulfilled their terms of it and has retired?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The Constitution is not a suicide pact. Government is under no obligation to wreck the citizenry for the good of itself. And given that public unions were sitting at both ends of the table, and negotiating benefits of which we never had any chance of paying, I don't terribly see that they were negotiated in good faith to begin with
    .
    Over the top extremist hyperbole.

    Libertarians and right wingers are showing their true colors and just how much respect they have for contracts. And then they wonder why they cannot get even 1% of the vote for president? Amazing.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Nor is this a "GOP" thing. Democrat governors and mayors are having to trim back on the Public Unions too. Just, oddly, no outrage...... :
    Correct me if I'm wrong...no Democratic governor is restricting public unions from existing or collectively bargaining. They are cutting public employees pay and compensation through negotiation with the unions.

    There's a big difference between the two.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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