View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #541
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Thank you for a thoughtful answer. It is appreciated.
    Given your proximity to ‘ground zero’ and your occupation I presume you are involved somewhat in this subject directly. What is the desired/proposed solution to this situation in Detroit? Given the reduction in population where will the funds come from to solidify the ‘contracts that have been in place between the legally constituted representatives…having fulfilled and met their obligations over thirty or forty years of employment’? Should the citizens of Michigan or the US be required to finance these locally promoted obligations?

    Ps. Not looking for an argument but rather further insight.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Contracts will be honored. Contracts are, generally, two or three years long. You seem to think that when a teacher (or other public employee) is hired, the contract that's in place for that 2- or 3-year period should be in place for thirty years. Think about it, Haymarket. That's not the way it works. I think you know that, though.

    Hypothetical: Teacher is hired under a contract promises "X $$" for their pension when they've fulfilled such-and-such. THAT promise is funded yearly. Let's say that same promise is in effect over two or three contracts -- and then changed. The law says that employee is entitled to the funding that was put aside for them during that initial contract. It in NO WAY guarantees that pension amount. Every contract negotiation is a new deal.
    I think that you're misunderstanding [b]Haymarket[/i]'s point: he asking if you think that a long time union - company relationship that has the same employees involved should be honored as such. You are right that contracts change according to enviroment, however, what's been happening in this case is a full on assault by the Republicans advocating this "small government" propoganda line. For instance, Scott Walker has no intention of honoring such a relationship and he's made that very clear, no matter what the unions have agreed to in the way of comensation back to the states. As for teachers, in some states like California, they don't pay into social security, so their pension is all they're going to get; that's why the health care after retirement is such a hot issue for a lot of public employees.

    I have a long experience with these types of cases and that's why I used the word "assault"; because that's what it is. As I've said a couple of times in this thread: the fuse has been lit; so . . .
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  3. #543
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I think that you all should be wearing those little Chinese outfits, working in sweatshops for 20.00 dollars a day. I think you should work for those rich bastards who want to get filthy rich off the backs of you ignorant peasants. You deserve no benefits, holidays, or weekends. You have no right to expect any longivity at your job. You've been there 25 years, built up a decent hourly wage through the years and have 4 weeks annual vacation. Why should I keep you around if I have to pay you all that vacation time and sick leave when I can just run your ass off and get me some kid fresh out of high school to take your job for 1/2 the price and none of the benefits?

    Vote republican!

    [/end sarcasm]
    Last edited by Captain America; 06-11-12 at 03:39 PM.

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  4. #544
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I think that you all should be wearing those little Chinese outfits, working in sweatshops for 20.00 dollars a day. I think you should work for those rich bastards who want to get filthy rich off the backs of you ignorant peasants. You deserve no benefits, holidays, or weekends. You have no right to expect any longivity at your job. You've been there 25 years, built up a decent hourly wage through the years and have 4 weeks annual vacation. Why should I keep you around if I have to pay you all that vacation time and sick leave when I can just run your ass off and get me some kid fresh out of high school to take your job for 1/2 the price and none of the benefits?

    Vote republican!

    [/end sarcasm]
    *Yawn* Just so you know when you work for someone they are paying you with their money usually on their property. That kind of makes it their call if they want you around or not. Your its not fair party is ignored.

  5. #545
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    *Yawn* Just so you know when you work for someone they are paying you with their money usually on their property. That kind of makes it their call if they want you around or not.

    Why should Americans expect a middle class standard of living, right? If its good enough for the poor masses in China, its good enough for Americans!
    Last edited by Catawba; 06-11-12 at 03:57 PM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Why should Americans expect a middle class standard of living, right? If its good enough for the poor masses in China, its good enough for Americans!
    *Yawn* The fact is that if they are paying you they can fire you if you cost too much and no amount of twenty-five years loyalty changes it either.

    Oh and btw check how the world market works again. You appear to missing the point of it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-11-12 at 04:09 PM.

  7. #547
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I think that you're misunderstanding [b]Haymarket[/i]'s point: he asking if you think that a long time union - company relationship that has the same employees involved should be honored as such.
    I guess I completely misunderstood Haymarket’s question. When he said ‘having fulfilled and met their obligations over thirty or forty years of employment’ I took this to mean that one was not ‘the same employees involved’ as evidenced by the past tense use of fulfill and meet and not the present tense use of involve that you prescribe. I also believed that his question was pertaining to public sector unions as the title of the thread implies and not the ‘union - company relationship’ you suggest. Guess I was wrong on that also. Thanks for clearing that up…

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    *Yawn* Just so you know when you work for someone they are paying you with their money usually on their property. That kind of makes it their call if they want you around or not. Your its not fair party is ignored.
    Yeah, that's why we shouldn't have sexual harrassment or labor laws or fair practices and standards. Hey; when you're rght you're right, you're right: you're just right.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  9. #549
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    I guess I completely misunderstood Haymarket’s question. When he said ‘having fulfilled and met their obligations over thirty or forty years of employment’ I took this to mean that one was not ‘the same employees involved’ as evidenced by the past tense use of fulfill and meet and not the present tense use of involve that you prescribe. I also believed that his question was pertaining to public sector unions as the title of the thread implies and not the ‘union - company relationship’ you suggest. Guess I was wrong on that also. Thanks for clearing that up…
    It can or cannot mean the same employees: people quit and people retire etc. The point is in the long term realtionship dynamic being one of collective bargaining. And it does apply to public sector unions as well: the scenario is the same but the point and defintions were misunderstood in my view. So, I would say, apply my definition and then answer Haymarket's post and see what you get.
    Last edited by jet57; 06-11-12 at 04:37 PM.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  10. #550
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    *Yawn* The fact is that if they are paying you they can fire you if you cost too much and no amount of twenty-five years loyalty changes it either.
    Which is why we have unions to begin with; thanks for helping to make a case in point.

    Oh and btw check how the world market works again. You appear to missing the point of it.
    Well, the rumor is that the "free market" world isn't doing to well these days because the "free market" world had no protections (even for themselves) in place to keep anything bad froma happening: deregulation is God send - ain't it??

    Again, thanks for making it easy to point that out.
    Last edited by jet57; 06-11-12 at 04:42 PM.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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