View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #521
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Then things must be much different in other parts of the world than they are here because no non-politician or any group of non-politicians can "take over" the government here.
    1. We are discussing de facto, not de jure.

    2. In fact this is what occurs with regards to most major entrenched special interest groups. It just so happens that when "government" is the interest group, there is no balancing faction. Just as government unions face no profitability check on their rent-seeking (as their private counterparts do), they face no check on their control.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    anywho, more news on this front, out of California of all places:

    ...Voters in San Diego and San Jose, the nation's eighth- and 10th-largest cities, overwhelmingly approved ballot measures last week to roll back municipal retirement benefits - and not just for future hires but for current employees.

    From coast to coast, the pensions of current public employees have long been generally considered untouchable. But now, some politicians are saying those obligations are trumped by the need to provide for the public's health and safety...

    Legal experts expect the cities to argue that their obligations to provide basic services such as police protection and garbage removal override promises made to employees.

    In San Diego, the city's payments to its retirement fund soared from $43 million in 1999 to $231.2 million this year, equal to 20 percent of the operating budget. At the same time, the 1.3 million residents saw roads deteriorate and libraries cut hours. For a while, fire stations had to share engines and trucks. The city has cut its workforce 14 percent since 2005.

    San Jose's pension payments jumped from $73 million in 2001 to $245 million this year, or 27 percent of its operating budget. Four libraries and a police station that were built over the past decade have never even opened because the city cannot afford to operate them. The city of 960,000 cut its workforce 27 percent over the past 10 years.

    "It's a problem that threatens our ability to remain a city and provide services to our people," said Mayor Chuck Reed. "It's huge dollar amounts and has a huge impact on services"...
    and out of Democrat Mayors, at that. We'll see if the outrage over Democrats cutting into Public Unions is as ferocious.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    anywho, more news on this front, out of California of all places:



    and out of Democrat Mayors, at that. We'll see if the outrage over Democrats cutting into Public Unions is as ferocious.

    Of course it is...theres been some turncoat scum because they are afraid they have to get re elected....how about this...two democrats both leadership...one in charge of the senate in jersey...hes an x Ironworker union Organizer and the other was the Electrical unions president or vice president. Both have taken huge amounts of union money for years...both voted for christies bone the public workers bills...without them he could not have passed it....after they voted for it and passed it...they were quite dismayed that unions told them the gravy train has ended...they said dont judge us on that one vote...judge us on all our votes...yeah sure LOL...

    Heres one of them not the Iron worker Organizer

    He changed his site some...it used to PROUDLY dispaly Ironworker union organizer...now hes downplayed it...and it says



    General Organizer, International Association of Ironworkers....heres a kicker for ya...he collects a pension with cost of living increases and full medical benefits from the ironworkers...the same things he tried to strip of state workers....now he will collect a state pension...with cost of living and full medical...see christie and the legislature didnt TOUCH their pensions or benefits...
    Christie has totally overwhelmed this dumbo...christie has categorically beaten him in every single foray since day one.


    Stephen M. Sweeney (D)
    Last edited by lpast; 06-11-12 at 09:21 AM.

  4. #524
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I'm pro-union in recognizing that we would have child labor and sweat shops without them. Yet I'm no fan of public sector unions. These are political jobs usually and paybacks of favors even at the lowest levels. Corporations and Unions have both been guilty of egregious behavior. Unions have driven some industries out of business by high wage, retirement, and healthcare demands. Yet, without the Unions, Corporations have always been evil and self serving. The Corporate charters are about making money, not the public good. The beancounters dream is ten cents an hour labor, no retirement and no healthcare because that is the most profitable scenario and that is what a Corporation is designed to do. That, and provide nice stock dividends to the wealthy with no work required. Like inherited wealth and entitlements and Divine Providence is why they are blessed with the wealth.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    anywho, more news on this front, out of California of all places:



    and out of Democrat Mayors, at that. We'll see if the outrage over Democrats cutting into Public Unions is as ferocious.
    This nonsense has to be stopped, and demorats, if they want the support of the voters, rather than just the gov't employee unions, must join in the effort to restore sanity to the pay and benefits offered to gov't employees. A private business would be forced to close its doors under the same conditions (like the auto and arilines have done) so too must the gov't (eventually). It boils down to simple math; defined benefit retirement plans must be ended and replaced with defined contribution plans with sensible employer/employee fund matching ratios and limits. Note that private 401K plans may not be used (without penalty) until at least age 59 1/2.

    Few seem to question the VERY early retirement ages "offered" to gov't employees, many have an "80" based system, rather than a minimum retirement age like SS/Medicare do. That system uses the gov't employee's age added to their number of years of their gov't service (sometimes even counting ANY gov't service) to determine retirement benefit eligability. Say John Q. Government started their city or state gov't employment "carreer" at age 20, when they reach the ripe old age of 50 (15 years, or more, before reaching SS/Medicare eligability age) they may get "full" gov't retirement benefits (30 years of service + 50 years of age = 80) and may often then get the option of staying on longer for still MORE gov't retirement benefits, or simply "retire" at 1/2 their full working salary and then work a "private" job for 15 years and get FULL SS/Medicare too!

    You can easily see the problem that this "80" system causes for the taxpayer, as they may end up paying for not only the full salary/benefits of the current gov't employee but 1.5x or 2x that amount to cover the retirement costs for the past one or two people that held that gov't position before them.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-11-12 at 09:51 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    A question for conservatives and libertarians who value contracts -

    Do we as a people honor the contracts we have negotiated regarding retirement benefits that a worker worked for thirty or forty years to obtain as promised?
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A question for conservatives and libertarians who value contracts -

    Do we as a people honor the contracts we have negotiated regarding retirement benefits that a worker worked for thirty or forty years to obtain as promised?
    Of course not silly you...nothing is valued by the conservatives...anyway you can screw the working class is just perfect...contracts are only good if they like the contract...then its a good contract

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A question for conservatives and libertarians who value contracts -

    Do we as a people honor the contracts we have negotiated regarding retirement benefits that a worker worked for thirty or forty years to obtain as promised?
    Do we honor contracts negotiated in bad faith by both parties when doing so would destroy our state and local fiscs?

    If our governments' first duty is to protect us, and the government of San Jose is forced to choose between generous COLA increases or keeping fire houses running, what is it's primary responsibility?

    We have Government by the People for the People. Not Government by the Government for the Government.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A question for conservatives and libertarians who value contracts -

    Do we as a people honor the contracts we have negotiated regarding retirement benefits that a worker worked for thirty or forty years to obtain as promised?
    No. Ask the native Americans, prior slave owners, property owners that have had land "re-zoned" (or declared as "wetlands") or, better yet, check out your own SS "information" statements. The minimum SS "full" retirement beneift age has been "adjusted" from the previous universal age of 65 to 66 to 69 (with much talk of going to up to 72 soon), the COLA adjustments for SS benefit increases is (sort of) still in place BUT the gov't "recomputed" the CPI basis for it to make it appear that inflation is not as bad as it feels, the "cost of living as we knew it" no longer exists as OUR gov't is quite "free" to alter what is, and is not, included (and in what proportions).
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #530
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    This nonsense has to be stopped, and demorats, if they want the support of the voters, rather than just the gov't employee unions, must join in the effort to restore sanity to the pay and benefits offered to gov't employees. A private business would be forced to close its doors under the same conditions (like the auto and arilines have done) so too must the gov't (eventually). It boils down to simple math; defined benefit retirement plans must be ended and replaced with defined contribution plans with sensible employer/employee fund matching ratios and limits. Note that private 401K plans may not be used (without penalty) until at least age 59 1/2.

    Few seem to question the VERY early retirement ages "offered" to gov't employees, many have an "80" based system, rather than a minimum retirement age like SS/Medicare do. That system uses the gov't employee's age added to their number of years of their gov't service (sometimes even counting ANY gov't service) to determine retirement benefit eligability. Say John Q. Government started their city or state gov't employment "carreer" at age 20, when they reach the ripe old age of 50 (15 years, or more, before reaching SS/Medicare eligability age) they may get "full" gov't retirement benefits (30 years of service + 50 years of age = 80) and may often then get the option of staying on longer for still MORE gov't retirement benefits, or simply "retire" at 1/2 their full working salary and then work a "private" job for 15 years and get FULL SS/Medicare too!

    You can easily see the problem that this "80" system causes for the taxpayer, as they may end up paying for not only the full salary/benefits of the current gov't employee but 1.5x or 2x that amount to cover the retirement costs for the past one or two people that held that gov't position before them.
    I have some friends that will be retiring at the ripe old age of 38.

    I mean, military service wrecks you in lots of ways, agreeably... but in today's age that's ridiculous.

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