View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #41
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    No, it's really not a belief.
    Yes, it really is. And it's a foolish one, built around the notion that people do not have individual circumstances.

    You don't seem to understand this basic concept, so let me try to explain it in a simpler way.

    1. Union negotiates a deal so that every school has a security guard.
    2. Every school has a security guard because of the union.
    3. The union was able to negotiate that deal because of teachers who paid union dues.
    4. Teachers who did not pay union dues benefit from the action of an organization they did not contribute to - they are free riders.
    except that:

    5. Half of the schools in the district do not need security guards, and yet the teachers who work in those schools have their compensation reduced to pay for the guard that they do not need.


    People are individuals, and circumstances vary. That is why socialization of compensation is typically not that great a bargain for many who are then told that they have to pay up "because they are benefiting." You are confusing your beliefs with facts. A Closed Shop is basically the union telling the workers that they must each subordinate their preferences, needs, and desires to that of the collective, as expressed by the Union.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-08-12 at 10:18 PM.

  2. #42
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    That was a mistype it was supposed to be private sector workers...and if you think public unions are dead...hang on to your scrotum and watch what happens in the next election cycle...there will be a working class revolt against the teatards....when reagan was prez the conservatives thou ght it was the end of the world for democrats and the working class...when obama got elected the progressives thought it was the end of the conservatives...the keyword in all that is THOUGHT...just like the teatards THINK the unions are dead....
    you didn't read my posts very well. I said the Public sector unions will be hard to get rid of because they are a wing of the dem party. Private sector unions have some uses but the government shouldn't protect them. But in some cases I'd rather deal with a union-the proud craft unions tend to guarantee the work and have pride in their trade. You often get a better deal with union carpenters, IBEW, pipe fitters etc.

    I want your revolt though.

    And your stupid rants about the tea party are idiotic-the tea party has no position on private sector unions

  3. #43
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    people should have the right to unionize in private sectors. The owner of business should have the absolute right to fire anyone who belongs to a union though. The government should play no role in protecting one from the other
    it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right , so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.

  4. #44
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that doesn't connect. If you are arguing that the reason for coercion is that non-unionized employees will benefit from unionized employees, then you are arguing that benefits flowing from actions that others take with or without their will can be charged to their account.
    Uh, I a arguing that if your requirement for donating to conservative casues were democratically decided, the you'd be right: but - so much for a qulitative quip: it did connect.

    Now I'm going to try and untangle your response: first, your desciption of coercion is purely the use of subjectivity. Nonunion employees generally do benefit from union employees because said contracts set standards that keep wages and benefits cometitive in work places. Now, if one wishes to work in a closed shop, then one must voluntarily submit to the requirement of union membership, thereby instantly setting oneself in line for the benefits that come with such memebership.

    So, other than that, I don't any idea what point you're trying to make.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  5. #45
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    What problems did they solve before that no longer exist so that they are no longer needed?
    Helping ensure safe worker environments mainly. Now they are too large, demand too many benefits, and wast tax payer money while restricting worker freedom (especially in non-right to work states). I think they also cause government to run inefficiently and keep crappy employees employed on the government's dime.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  6. #46
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right , so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
    The one party that has the absolute right to hire you, possesses the absolute right to fire you as well. You work at the pleasure of the employer.

  7. #47
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Unions are a good way for employees to discuss issues with employers. I still think it's important to have employee organization to voice these concerns (A Union or smaller group).

    well in the postal service you have the national alliance which is not a union. and supervisors have NAPS-National Association of Postal Supervisors who can represent EAS 15 or higher (I believe) employees who are too high to be in the APWU or the Mail handlers etc unions. Assistant United States Attorneys have NAAUSA
    none of those are bargaining units but they do what you want in public sector employment.

    the problem with Pub Sect unions is that the bargaining is not in good faith because the union is often bargaining with people they helped elect or with people who are subordinate to the people they helped elect and the taxpayers often do not have representation at the table.

    in the private sector management represents the owners-unions represents the workers and if management gives too cozy a deal the owners are going to fire them. If the union gets too good a deal they lose their jobs

    if a public sector union gets too good a deal the taxpayers are forced to foot the bill-public sector unions cannot kill the host like greedy private sector unions can

  8. #48
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right
    How does firing someone force them to quit a union? That strikes me as something that is up to the Union itself, whether or not they make current employment a condition for membership.

    so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
    Absolutely he should. Just as non-government workers should have the right to go on strike.

    That's the beauty of the free market. If the workers are right and they are being undervalued, then the employer will be unable to find people willing to perform the labor for the compensation package he offers, and he will be forced to capitulate or go under. If the business owner is right, and he is properly valuing the workers, then he will be able to replace them, and the union will fail.

  9. #49
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    it is not a right if one party can neutralize it with termination of those excersing said right , so no, the owner of the business SHOULD NOT have the absolute right to fire anyone for joining a union.
    if every available laborer joins the union than the union will be able to get its terms. If the company can hire enough workers who aren't in the union should lose. that's the way it should be. and yes, I should have the absolute right to fire you for being in a union.

  10. #50
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Public sector unions will be around a while because they are organs of the dem party and its hard to outsource stuff like AFSCME bureaucrats. HOwever, manufacturing unions and some service unions are doomed by global markets. the most legitimate and useful unions-trade unions that teach a trade-are waning while the least legitimate and most malignant unions-public sector unions are growing. No wonder we are screwed
    Well, according to hte new montra of "Build and Buy American", your dire prediction is what is doomed. As for Public employee Unions; well, we'll habe to wait and see. JFK entered thier roght to organize into law, so said law is going to have to overturned first, and that is not likely.

    Historically, nonunion beliefs in this country had worked themselves into such a zenith that both the military and police were showing up to picket lines, rifles in hand, and opening fire on strikers; that didn't last.

    These times in AMerican hisotry have ebbs and flows: this way and that way. We're just getting into this for real now.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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