View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #381
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well it doesn't seem like you have a position really... It's like you're only laying out 5% of your position and assuming I know what you meant to say. I don't. If you want to repeal the 16th amendment, you're certainly free to try, but you would fail... I dunno. Why don't you just spell out what your position is.
    Tell me since you brought up it like the founders intended it WHY the sixteenth was needed? I see you were unaware you did so AGAIN.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-10-12 at 06:50 PM.

  2. #382
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    How am I supposed to take the OP seriously when it can't even spell "Democratic" properly?
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
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  3. #383
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Of course it does- "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". You don't need to look up what any individual founder wanted it to say, they wrote it down. We have a written constitution.
    I'm not the one that called Madison a lier. That was you friend. Trying to back down on it now and quoting the line means nothing at this point. You are already known to be full of it.

  4. #384
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Then things must be much different in other parts of the world than they are here because no non-politician or any group of non-politicians can "take over" the government here.
    Of course they can - which is why I label this an "effective" ceding of sovereignty rather than a "nominal" one. It's the classic De Toqueville nightmare of concentrated v dissipated interest.

  5. #385
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Of course it does- "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States". You don't need to look up what any individual founder wanted it to say, they wrote it down. We have a written constitution.
    aye, but you do need to understand the meanings of the phrases utilized.
    the contemporary liberal definition of " general welfare" is vastly different than the definition used by the framers....y'all have rendered the term virtually meaningless .. under the current notions, the words " general welfare' can be replaced with " do whatever we want, to whomever we want, for whatever reason"

    Madison is one that defined the term... he defined it as a synonym of the enumerated powers ,seen collectively... not an independent source of power.
    this is the exact opposite of the view of contemporary liberalism that consistently utilize it as an independent source of power.

    I blame the public education system.. the system that was unconstitutionally co-opted and controlled by the Federal Government( another example of the general welfare clause being improperly applied)..

  6. #386
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Tell me since you brought up it like the founders intended it WHY the sixteen was needed? I see you were unaware you did so AGAIN.
    So your position is that the initial constitution didn't permit the income tax, but that the 16th changed that? I don't necessarily agree. People were split on whether the original one did. But with the 16th in place there certainly isn't any question, right? So what is your issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm not the one that called Madison a lier. That was you friend. Trying to back down on it now and quoting the line means nothing at this point. You are already known to be full of it.
    Kiddo, I can't believe you're bringing up that Madison thing again after I totally smashed you on that. Remember? I said that he waited to release his notes until after the other framers had died and that the framers had promised not to do that. You angrily accused me of making that all up, I posted my source, and you slunk away in shame. Why would you want to relive that?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  7. #387
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I find it interesting that in this thread people have argued all around the subject without actually picking up the question of the OP. It seems no one really can think of a good series of reasons why Public Unions will be able to bounce back from the blows of the last few years. That's an interesting parallel to the Wisconsin election itself - where Democrats ended up not actually running on collective bargaining.


    anywho, in other news, once again, we here in the conservative ranks at DP have brought you the analysis before the talking heads have picked up on it .

    Boston Globe: The end is near for public-sector unions

    In retrospect, there were two conspicuous giveaways that Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker was headed for victory in last week’s recall election.

    One was that the Democrats’ campaign against him wound up focusing on just about everything but Walker’s law limiting collective bargaining rights for government workers. Sixteen months ago, the Capitol building in Madison was besieged by rioting protesters hell-bent on blocking the changes by any means necessary. Union members and their supporters, incandescent with rage, likened Walker to Adolf Hitler and cheered as Democratic lawmakers fled the state in a bid to force the legislature to a standstill. Once the bill passed, unions and Democrats vowed revenge, and amassed a million signatures on recall petitions.

    But the more voters saw of the law’s effects, the more they liked it... Long before Election Day, Democratic challenger Tom Barrett had all but dropped the issue of public-sector collective bargaining from his campaign to replace Walker.

    The second harbinger was the plunge in public-employee union membership. The most important of Walker’s reforms, the change Big Labor had fought most bitterly, was ending the automatic withholding of union dues. That made union membership a matter of choice, not compulsion — and tens of thousands of government workers chose to toss their union cards. More than one-third of the Wisconsin members of the American Federation of Teachers quit, reported The Wall Street Journal. At the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, one of the state’s largest unions, the hemorrhaging was worse: AFSCME’s Wisconsin rolls shrank by more than 34,000 over the past year, a 55 percent nose-dive.

    Did government workers tear up their union cards solely because the union had lost its right to bargain collectively on their behalf? That’s doubtful: Even under the new law, unions still negotiate over salaries. More likely, public-sector employees ditched their unions for the same reasons so many employees in the private sector — which is now less than 7 percent unionized — have done so: Many never wanted to join a union in the first place....
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-10-12 at 07:01 PM.

  8. #388
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    Madison is one that defined the term... he defined it as a synonym of the enumerated powers ,seen collectively... not an independent source of power.
    Madison wanted a much more narrowly circumscribed federal government than was actually laid out in the constitution. Hamilton wanted a much broader one. The actual constitution is the compromise that was struck. Even after it was written, Hamilton continually tries to paint it as though it meant something much broader and Madison as though it meant something much more narrow. The courts go off the actual words, which clearly encompass spending to promote the general welfare.

    Now, that most emphatically doesn't mean the federal government can just do whatever it wants. All that clause grants the government are the powers to spend and to tax, not anything else.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  9. #389
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    which brand of libertarianism are you talking about?
    The hard core, no taxes, no power for the government whatsoever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #390
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I find it interesting that in this thread people have argued all around the subject without actually picking up the question of the OP. It seems no one really can think of a good series of reasons why Public Unions will be able to bounce back from the blows of the last few years.
    Perhaps your not reading well. I think that has been answered. I myself noted that this is something that cycles, so there is no reason to believe it is over, let alone something that they would require a coming back.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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