View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #361
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Ok, so you want a government. That costs money, so I assume you want the government to tax. Right?
    not speaking for him, but yes.. i want a government, and i do consent to some taxation in order to pay for those services the government provides.
    I do, however, demand discretion and careful, rational, thought in confiscating peoples money... money should not be confiscated in order to pay for services that are not explicitly codified in the US Constitution. they should not be confiscated in order to manipulate behaviors, and they should not be confiscated to assuage irrational and subjective concerns of "fairness"

    I am opposed , however, to extraconsitutional power being wielded, I am opposed to the the contemporary liberal agenda of the nanny state, I am opposed to current oppressive levels of taxation, and i'm opposed to the notion that there is an unlimited supply of other peoples money that we are magically justified in confiscating at whim. I am opposed the the contemporary liberal notion of an unlimited government.

  2. #362
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Whether you belong to an association is irrelevant. If you murder someone, that person's protection agency will come to you looking for compensation. You do not "get off" just because you don't belong to some association.
    Ok. So you want the country to be ruled by private gangs that report to those who fund them and impose the rules their sponsors prefer on others against their will. Is that an accurate description? Again, that describes the status quo in Somalia, doesn't it?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  3. #363
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    not speaking for him, but yes.. i want a government, and i do consent to some taxation in order to pay for those services the government provides.
    I do, however, demand discretion and careful, rational, thought in confiscating peoples money... money should not be confiscated in order to pay for services that are not explicitly codified in the US Constitution. they should not be confiscated in order to manipulate behaviors, and they should not be confiscated to assuage irrational and subjective concerns of "fairness"
    The constitution does explicitly codify what taxes can be collected for- to provide for the general welfare and the common defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I am opposed , however, to extraconsitutional power being wielded, I am opposed to the the contemporary liberal agenda of the nanny state, I am opposed to current oppressive levels of taxation, and i'm opposed to the notion that there is an unlimited supply of other peoples money that we are magically justified in confiscating at whim. I am opposed the the contemporary liberal notion of an unlimited government.
    Well that's fine. You get a vote just like everybody else.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  4. #364
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    no vote
    I really do NOT KNOW what is going on.
    If employers treat their employees with dignity and respect, then the unions are out of business, both public and private.
    Conservatives and Liberals , you know what the key words are, but do you know how to employ them ?
    The problem is not every employer knows how to treat their employees with dignity and respect, and the larger the corporation is the less likely that is to be.

    Small business owners may treat their employees better, but that's because those owners get to know their employees and so care for them.

    The reason why Walmart is able to do what it does is because all it cares about is profit and doesn't give a **** if a worker is a single parent or not.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  5. #365
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    So those workers who wish to have power will join a union, and those who don't won't. Or they'll join a better union. Choice is good, no?
    If the workers aren't united, they collectively have no power. So a few workers choosing not to join a union essentially castrates all of the other workers who do. A few workers are then actually making the choice for all of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  6. #366
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an employer hire some workers from one union, some more workers from another union, and even more workers directly as individuals?
    That's why what I would like is a guild system.

    A guild can do collective bargaining in order to demand contract minimums for workers in their field. However, workers can still negotiate for the rest of their contract with their employer.

    So, for instance, a guild would demand that every contract has, say, a minimum wage set at a certain level, minimum amount of sick days, minimum vacation days, and so on. But someone who's been in his occupation for 20 years can demand a higher wage, more sick days, and use of vacation days more often than a young guy. Also a young guy can know how much he's expected to command doing his job at entry level.

    A guild could also be used for other things, such as legal services or access to health insurance and a retirement plan if they don't want to go with those services provided with their employer. This way people who stick to their occupation will be allowed mobility to move from one employer to another, or possibly even work for themselves.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  7. #367
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have no doubt every slave owner in pre civil war America would stand proudly and give you an ovation.


    10 char

  8. #368
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Of course the government has a license to tax. It's the very first power granted to the Congress in the constitution and it is reaffirmed in the 16th amendment. You already know that of course.
    More and more failure. Tell me again what kind of taxes existed during that time period and tell me again WHY they decided on such. Or maybe you could realize for once the difference between taxes and involuntary servitude that is income taxes


    I have no idea what you mean here. Are you saying that you prefer non-income taxes? If so, you're certainly free to hold that preference, but it isn't a widely shared one. Hence the 16th amendment.
    So you really wish to go back to why that 16th amendment was needed to get a income tax? More failure on your part and tell me again how many people enjoy working four or more months for free. Please do share.


    Well, a country has to either have a government or not. The overwhelming majority of Americans prefer having a government, so that's what we have. If you really don't want to live under a government, you could certainly move to Somalia where they effectively have no government. I don't think you'd actually find that you like it in practice though.
    Your strawman I need a chainsaw to take down. I enjoy how liberals miss the point so badly on purpose and think it doesn't just make them look stupid.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-10-12 at 06:31 PM.

  9. #369
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Ok. So you want the country to be ruled by private gangs that report to those who fund them and impose the rules their sponsors prefer on others against their will. Is that an accurate description? Again, that describes the status quo in Somalia, doesn't it?
    That's the inherent contradiction in hard core Libertarianism. They don't want anarchy, but when you press on the specifics of an effective government, they don't want any of the things necessary to make the government effective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #370
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The constitution does explicitly codify what taxes can be collected for- to provide for the general welfare and the common defense.
    Except that it doesn't but then Madison is a lier. Isn't that just hilariously right?

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