View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #351
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    not according to he philosophies adopted and codified in the US Constitution....
    Voting is a privilege. Owning a gun is a privilege. A right is something someone can not take away from you. People do not get to own guns. People do not get to vote. Thus, privileges.
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  2. #352
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The argument for making the tax code reflect income inequality has nothing to do with "if I can't have it, neither can they."
    Correct, having most of the country's wealth concentrated at the top, out of reach of the majority of consumers, does not create enough consumer demand for a consumer based economy to prosper. That's why 200 millionaires have signed the letter to petition Congress to raise the tax rates for the wealthy.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #353
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    If you really believe that government isn't offering you anything in exchange and that a government that lacks the power to collect taxes woud be more civilized, then perhaps you would find life in Somalia to be the height of civility. I kinda doubt it though.
    Nope. I'm not interested in Somalia. I want an effective legal system that protects private property and institutions of governance that comply with the nonaggression principle. Somalia is definitely not that.

  4. #354
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again that is a lie.If I want to be police office,public school teacher, fire fighter or some other public sector job with a closed shop I have no choice but to join a union and not just any union but the approved union. I just say fine I'll go this fire station,police station,public school or some other public sector job across town that doesn't have a union or a union I support.




    Again unions were created for the benefit of the workers in general.So what ever an employer chooses to pay me is none of the union's business. If an employer wants to pay me the same,less or more than what a Union worker at the same company makes then that is mine and the employer's business, not the union's.
    sorry james, but you couldnt possibly be more wrong...you always have a choice, always, you are not forced to work in a union shop, that is your choice if you do. if you don't want to, i'm sure there are many places of employment in your area that are non union, and more to your liking.

  5. #355
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Nope. I'm not interested in Somalia. I want an effective legal system that protects private property and institutions of governance that comply with the nonaggression principle. Somalia is definitely not that.
    Ok, so you want a government. That costs money, so I assume you want the government to tax. Right?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  6. #356
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Funny how those rabid union supporters claim that a workers union and employers have a right to form contracts to dictate closed shop.But not one public sector workers union has ever negotiated with its employers for benefits,tenure, "trial de nova" for employees being fired, pensions and many other things.Because why would tax payers approve of those things when many tax payers do not get those things themselves.
    Uhm, I'm afraid that your post is like trying to watch a damged DVD . . . Number one; "tenure" applies to teachers only, and tenure; as a practice, dates to 17th century England and applied to "academic honesty" with respect to religious ferver vs science. In other unions, it's seniority that applies to one degree or another, depending on the union's contract. Academic tenure means that the bearer cannot be fired for any reason for the duration of the educator's career at the given institution: union or not. You may hate that idea, but there is so much history and tradition that overrules a simple prejudice that you may as well put it out of your mind beasue that ain't changing. It is one of the chief draws to a career in education to begin with. It's kind of like retiring at a very high rank from the military.

    Now, as for closed shops, that is largely dictated by state law. I suppose that it could be negotiated into a contract in an open shop state (right to work), but I've neer heard of that: and besides, in an open shop state, the company is not likey to go for such a thing.

    Union representation does not equal trial de nova. Union representation offers a "good cause" hearing, wherein the company must show good cause for the termination. That kind of thing, plus the benefits and pension is what the dues pay for: auto insurance is the same thing. It can be very difficult to fire a union public employee, because many times the rules are so draconian that those rules just represent charicatures of those managers tryng to make names for themselves: remember; it's politics . . . People need protection fomr politics.

    Now, taxpayers vote for the representatives who sign those public employee contracts: so, blame them, not the employees who know how everybody's gettin' scammed by the boondoggle that is government at any level.
    Last edited by jet57; 06-10-12 at 05:38 PM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Ok, so you want a government. That costs money, so I assume you want the government to tax. Right?
    No, that would violate the nonaggression principle. However, anyone would be free to supply the governance services currently provided by coercive monopoly governments, such as arbitration, private security, or defense. Or people could form voluntary mutual associations to carry out these governance functions.

    The point is that no person has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate aggression against another person or his property.

  8. #358
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The argument for making the tax code reflect income inequality has nothing to do with "if I can't have it, neither can they."
    true, it's more about " they have it, I want it, so i'll take it"

  9. #359
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    No, that would violate the nonaggression principle. However, anyone would be free to supply the governance services currently provided by coercive monopoly governments, such as arbitration, private security, or defense. Or people could form voluntary mutual associations to carry out these governance functions.

    The point is that no person has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate aggression against another person or his property.
    Well "voluntary government" is the same thing as no government obviously. If all I have to do to be able to murder somebody is to let my subscription to some association, then it is meaningless. You're certainly free to form whatever voluntary association you like in Somalia.
    Last edited by teamosil; 06-10-12 at 05:48 PM.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  10. #360
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well "voluntary government" is the same thing as no government obviously. If all I have to do to be able to murder somebody is to let my subscription to some association, then it is meaningless. You're certainly free to form whatever voluntary association you like in Somalia.
    Whether you belong to an association is irrelevant. If you murder someone, that person's protection agency will come to you looking for compensation. You do not "get off" just because you don't belong to some association.

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