View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #221
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    "Ceding sovereignty"? That's funny, dude, have you considered stand-up?
    There is nothing funny at all about it. Public Sector unions are threats to popular sovereignty.

  2. #222
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    There is nothing funny at all about it. Public Sector unions are threats to popular sovereignty.
    Then you had better define your notion of "popular sovereignty".
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-10-12 at 07:39 AM.
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  3. #223
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Then you had better define your notion of "popular sovereignty".
    Roughly, the ability of the governed to control the government. When portions of government self-organize in opposition to the peoples' representatives they either A) lose or B) take effective control of that portion of the government.

  4. #224
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Lets see-I posted indisputable facts and two advocates of parasitic government merely engaged in nattering nothings in response
    The "induspatable facts" you post about the wealthy paying a certain percentage of income tax have no relationship with your pontifications you then make upon the subject of taxation.

    no matter what you whine about, the rich pay far more of the TOTAL federal taxes than any other group and this is especially true when dealing with the FIT and completely true when dealing with the estate or death tax.
    We have been through this many many many times before in thread after thread. You are well aware that when ALL TAXES PAID by ALL PERSONS to ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT are considered, the percentage paid by the wealthy as a percentage of total income is only a tiny bit more than the percentage paid as a percentage of total income by average workers.

    You also know this is because
    1 - the wealthy pay a very low rate of FICA tax compared to most people
    2- most state and local taxes are flat or regressive in nature

    This is a long established fact. It also explains why you are obsessed with discussing only the federal income tax and inheritance taxes.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-10-12 at 08:02 AM.
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  5. #225
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Roughly, the ability of the governed to control the government. When portions of government self-organize in opposition to the peoples' representatives they either A) lose or B) take effective control of that portion of the government.
    Then things must be much different in other parts of the world than they are here because no non-politician or any group of non-politicians can "take over" the government here.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  6. #226
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    This study of ALL TAXES paid by ALL AMERICANS to ALL LEVELS of government paints a very different picture to the skewed and inaccurate narrative that Turtle has been pushing.


    http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2009.pdf

    The total federal, state and local effective tax rate for the richest one percent of
    Americans (30.9 percent) is only slightly higher than the average effective tax rate for
    the remaining 99 percent of Americans (29.4 percent).
    We have been through this before folks.

    and more data from tax day 2011 which supports the same conclusions

    http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-10-12 at 08:30 AM.
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  7. #227
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    So you are just pointing out that "progressive taxes are progressive"... That's a useful piece of analysis in your opinion? You understand that would be true in any tax system whatsoever, right? If we had 1% of the taxes being progressive and 99% of them being regressive, you could still sit around and whine about how the system is too progressive so long as you're willing to ignore the taxes that aren't... It's just stupid man. Think about it for one second. Just one second. That's all I ask.
    what is stupid is claiming that the tax SYSTEM is not progressive enough using a ton of non progressive taxes to discuss the SYSTEM and then demanding that the ONE progressive tax ought to become EVEN MORE Progressive in order to balance off all the non-progressive taxes that are factored into the SYSTEM that you complain about.

    and that is the point you have been ignoring all along. Trying to balance FICA, state sales taxes, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, hotel taxes, property taxes which are not progressive or are only semi-progressive by making the FIT more progressive is dishonest.

  8. #228
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, that is not even remotely close to true. The top 1% have enough wealth to cover the entire deficit forever. The top 1% own 35% of all the wealth of the country. The total wealth of the US is around $70 trillion. So, 35% of $70 trillion would be $24.5 trillion. If you assume a 5% rate of return each year, that would be enough to cover the entire deficit every year forever without dipping into the principle.



    When you look at all taxes, our system is fairly mildly progressive up most of the way (people in poverty pay 16%, somebody who is very well off, but still has to work, pays 31%. But then it drops way off for the rich. Somebody who makes many millions a year from investments only pays 15% or so.
    complete idiocy. But thanks for showing what you really want to have happen. And you prove the point I made in my last post-you are using many non-progressive taxes to create an overall tax rate and then you claim that overall system is not progressive enough because you have included many non-progressive taxes in that system

    why cannot you get it through your head that taxes have to be evaluated on their individual merit and its moronic to say we have to make the overall system more progressive by raising the top rates on a progressive tax to counterbalance non-progressive taxes that were never intended to be progressive?

  9. #229
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm fine with choice and I'm fine with the existence of closed shops - just so long as the system is balanced and non-union shops are allowed as well . Government should not tilt the scales in favor of either employees or business owners; they should rather be left to work things out between themselves.
    the reason why the unionistas hate that environment is obvious

  10. #230
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The "induspatable facts" you post about the wealthy paying a certain percentage of income tax have no relationship with your pontifications you then make upon the subject of taxation.



    We have been through this many many many times before in thread after thread. You are well aware that when ALL TAXES PAID by ALL PERSONS to ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT are considered, the percentage paid by the wealthy as a percentage of total income is only a tiny bit more than the percentage paid as a percentage of total income by average workers.

    You also know this is because
    1 - the wealthy pay a very low rate of FICA tax compared to most people
    2- most state and local taxes are flat or regressive in nature

    This is a long established fact. It also explains why you are obsessed with discussing only the federal income tax and inheritance taxes.
    as usual you miss the point. I discuss progressive taxes when discussing if they are "progressive enough" while you and teamosil try to claim they are not progressive enough because the do not make the rich's overall tax rate (which includes many NON PROGRESSIVE) taxes) Progressive enough

    show us where the income tax and the estate or death tax was intended to counter non-progressive taxes so that everyone's OVERALL tax rate-state local and federal-was supposed to be a certain progressive rate

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