View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #211
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Then examine our own history of how public unions increased the standard of living and working conditions for public employees closer to that of the private sector.
    How many times must I say this? The unions of yesteryear are not the same as the unions we have today. I do not discount, disparage, deny, or anything else the importance that unions use to be. I just do not believe that the unions of today are useful. I think that they are a detriment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You tried to refute it with your opinion is if it were fact. I fail to see the difference.
    If I was trying to pass off my opinions as fact then I would have inserted the word "fact" in those posts or gave some other indication. I have not. How you took my posts is irrelevent to what those posts actually say. See, I'm a blunt person. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Perhaps that is why you think that I was trying to pass them off as fact.
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  2. #212
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    How many times must I say this? The unions of yesteryear are not the same as the unions we have today. I do not discount, disparage, deny, or anything else the importance that unions use to be. I just do not believe that the unions of today are useful. I think that they are a detriment.

    If I was trying to pass off my opinions as fact then I would have inserted the word "fact" in those posts or gave some other indication. I have not. How you took my posts is irrelevent to what those posts actually say. See, I'm a blunt person. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Perhaps that is why you think that I was trying to pass them off as fact.
    Thanks for your opinions!
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  3. #213
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    No, it's not. It is a belief. One could just as easily make the argument that without public union restrictions, merit pay would allow non-unionized teachers to earn more. Similarly, one could argue that without Unions' shifting compensation to the back end via retirement and healthcare benefits, that non-unionized teachers (many of whom may want to only work for a few years) would benefit more from being able to negotiate individually and shift their compensation to the pay end and away from the benefits.
    You're kidding, right? No mid-sized to large company negotiates that way except for very specific jobs.

    "If you qualify for the janitor position then here's they pay we offer and the compensation package - take it or leave it."

    That's about the extent of "negotiation" for most of the workers in America. The only time that might change is when unemployment starts dipping toward 4% or lower.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-10-12 at 04:24 AM.
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  4. #214
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    The better question is why are public sector unions needed in the first place?
    Because the government is just as bad at listening to it's workers about problems in the workplace as the private sector is.
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  5. #215
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Of course they do. That's absurd. They make roads, they create educated future generations, they keep cities safe, they put out fires, they keep people healthy, the help preserve competitive and honest markets, etc...
    what a fascinating set of claims. So, it is your argument that prior to unionization, public employees did not do these things, and that in the states where they do not have collective bargaining, they do not do these things today?

    And, more generally, the more power unions have, the higher compensation is for all people
    This is incorrect. The more power unions have, the higher compensation for those who are unionized. Unfortunately, by artificially increasing the price of labor, unions also decrease demand, having a net negative effect on employment.

  6. #216
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You're kidding, right? No mid-sized to large company negotiates that way except for very specific jobs.

    "If you qualify for the janitor position then here's they pay we offer and the compensation package - take it or leave it."

    That's about the extent of "negotiation" for most of the workers in America. The only time that might change is when unemployment starts dipping toward 4% or lower.
    Not necessarily at all - I've negotiated at all my jobs up to and including my current membership in the Military.

    But the fact remains that the Union negotiation of compensation packages in no way necessarily benefits non-unionized teachers. I, for example, would like to spend a few years teaching at one point in my life, but I'm not going to spend 30 years in it. How does a compensation package that decreases my pay in order to increase a pension that I will never see benefit me?

  7. #217
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Because the government is just as bad at listening to it's workers about problems in the workplace as the private sector is.
    And that justifies effectively ceding sovereignty to public sector unions because.....?

  8. #218
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    public sector unions do not raise standard of living for millions, they create no market for industry, and we are talking about state government.. production doesn't enter into the equation as the don't produce anything.
    I believe those "undreamed of levels of production" Dr King was talking about was from consumer spending. The creation of the middle class and the subsequent increase in consumer spending is exactly what propelled us forward economically. China is moving forward because of consumer spending - at least they hope they are since exports are leveling off or reversing. If they don't have the domestic demand to keep up production as the exports slow then they'll experience a recession, too. We're still having trouble getting economic traction mostly from lack of consumer spending.

    So, yes, public sector unions, in fact any group that promotes a reasonable wage for workers, increases production. As many business have learned in the past couple of years it's demand that fuels production, not the other way around. You can produce all the widgets you want but you have to sell them to make a profit.
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  9. #219
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not necessarily at all - I've negotiated at all my jobs up to and including my current membership in the Military.

    But the fact remains that the Union negotiation of compensation packages in no way necessarily benefits non-unionized teachers. I, for example, would like to spend a few years teaching at one point in my life, but I'm not going to spend 30 years in it. How does a compensation package that decreases my pay in order to increase a pension that I will never see benefit me?
    That depends how the pensions are set up. I know several people who have had more than one job that offered a pension plan, so instead of drawing one big paycheck from one pension they draw several small checks from various pensions. It all comes out more or less the same.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #220
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    And that justifies effectively ceding sovereignty to public sector unions because.....?
    "Ceding sovereignty"? That's funny, dude, have you considered stand-up?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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