View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #121
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    you are free to work anywhere you wish....if you don't like the terms of that employment, no one is forcing you to take a job...move on to the next one.
    You really don't have a ****ing clue, do you? Unions don't employ people, companies do.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    no strawman, the absolute truth..and cp, you already have the 'right to work'...you don't have to work in a union shop, you can find a non union shop to your liking. to pretend that you don't have a choice is absurd and dishonest.
    That is a silly argument as well, since there is but ONE gov't. Too allow a minority (gov't workers) to dictate labor policy to the majority (the taxpayer/voters) is insane. Why should we, the people, be forced to cede labor negotiating power to the few among us that CHOOSE to work in the gov't jobs that we offer? If 2% of the public works for the gov't, then barely over 1% get to be the sole deciders of whether a gov't union can come to exist. In non right-to-work states that means that ALL gov't employees must pay union dues, and ALL taxpayers must honor any contract made with them. If the gov't has the "right" to alter SS retirement ages AFTER that citizen has been required to pay SS taxation (yet has not yet attained the benefit age), we should certainly be able to alter a "labor contract" that assigns retirement benfits for ANY gov't worker that has not yet retired. It is time to stop the madness of treating ONLY gov't employees, not the citizens that must support them trough taxation, as "super citizens" with special union contract rights that are not applicable to ALL citizens. After all of the screaming in WI about how "unfair" the teachers were treated one would expect a mass exodus of these highly qualified and educated folks, yet NONE (as far as I know) quit and the applictaions for these positions are still backed up with hundreds waiting for an opening.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #123
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That might be. However, as fungibility increases, I wouldn't be surprised to see money and people leave states dominated by their public unions at the same pace that we've seen capital flee businesses and industries similarly controlled. To an extent, we are already seeing this, with large flight of productive persons from California.
    You could count me as one of those people in some fashion. I purposely left California almost 7 years ago. Not because of unions specifically. A large part of my list of reasons was how effed-up state government had become, though, and the state public unions certainly did play a part in that.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
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  4. #124
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes. Explicitly you argued that sectors that are involved in public safety are prime candidates for unionization,
    Where did I do that? Hint: no where at all.

    and implicitly you suggested this is because public unions will somehow provide a better service. I point out that the military is a public sector involved in providing public safety, but the specter of what happens when the military begins to steer government is one whose effects we are all too familiar with. the incentives and effects are the same for the others - government by the government for the government is an extractive enterprise in which special interests fatten themselves at the public expense.
    The majority of union members are middle class. I hardly consider middle class to be "fattening" anything.

    or (more plausibly) you enable them to get rid of poor teachers and you allow the quality of your district to increase.
    No. When you fire workers based on things outside of their control, then you put yourself at risk for firing many quality workers. You also put yourself at risk for not solving the problems outside of those workers' control because instead of addressing the causes of those problems, you falsely tie them to the workers. This is the scenario I'm talking about and it would only increase the quality of workers in an alternate universe.

    an attempt to side-step the question.
    You didn't ask a question...

    why should we allow sectors of the government to control themselves, thus making them unaccountable to the citizenry?
    Easy. Unions don't make the government unaccountable to the citizenry.

    In that occurs then the good employees quit and the public holds the government officials to account. If they have broken the law, they can be sued.
    Oh please. The government has been treating public employees horribly for years and the public hasn't done squat to hold government officials accountable. Hell, you don't even understand why holding teachers accountable for things outside of their control is unfair and dangerous for public education. Unions understand things like that and enable workers to negotiate for fair and quality treatment that the public often benefits from. I'll count on that.

    Lawsuits are fine, but I'd rather prevent them by negotiating beforehand.

    Public Union members, however, are hardly if at all vulnerable to being held to account for providing poor services.
    Said like someone blissfully unaware of many of the problems that face many public workers.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 06-09-12 at 11:04 AM.

  5. #125
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Lately we have seen Republican and Democrat (though, oddly, only Republicans make news with it) Governors work to save their states from fiscal ruin by curtailing the Public Unions, either in finances or in power. Have the last two years marked the beginning of the end for the Public Sector Union, and will they go the way of the Private Sector Union?
    If they do it will be only bad for federal, state, and municipal governments.

    It's not the public sector unions that are bankrupting these state and local governments. Rather, its the pension plans that they don't fund.

    So it would make more sense to get rid of pension plans and instead have a 401K plan that governments must pay into for every paycheck the worker gets than have these pension plans. And the union can help negotiate these plans for the workers.

    But that is a healthy compromise that makes way too much sense that doesn't feed into any of the partisan ideology of either side and will actually work for the mutual benefit of government workers and government administrators, and we just cannot have that in our country.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  6. #126
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    no vote
    I really do NOT KNOW what is going on.
    If employers treat their employees with dignity and respect, then the unions are out of business, both public and private.
    Conservatives and Liberals , you know what the key words are, but do you know how to employ them ?

  7. #127
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Then if you want to work for a union shop go to where one already exists and dont impose one on my company.
    Impose? You're also free to argue for one, and if accepted, become a union shop. That is choice.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #128
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Impose? You're also free to argue for one, and if accepted, become a union shop. That is choice.
    Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an employer hire some workers from one union, some more workers from another union, and even more workers directly as individuals?

  9. #129
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an employer hire some workers from one union, some more workers from another union, and even more workers directly as individuals?
    The thing with unions is that they can't work for just a portion of the employee group. I'm not sure why, but whatever they negotiate goes to everyone. So, in that situation, it would be very cheap for all workers to not join but gain the benefits. While we're not a union where I work, we do have a bargining group that collects dues from members (we give scholorships with the money). Whatever we gain goes to everyone, regardless of being a member or not. Some feel that is quite unfair.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #130
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an employer hire some workers from one union, some more workers from another union, and even more workers directly as individuals?
    I believe that some places do that, but... from what I have heard it almost never works out well. What you are suggesting is adult behavior, and adults seldom act adult-like.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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