View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
Page 122 of 124 FirstFirst ... 2272112120121122123124 LastLast
Results 1,211 to 1,220 of 1237

Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1211
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:15 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,799

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    I have read many of your posts, and it seems to me highly ridiculous that you have come to that conclusion considering the dim bulb of dogma which invariably betrays anything of yours that I have ever read.
    I hope when you wrote that you had some coherent point you were trying to make because it utterly got derailed but the time it ended up on screen.

    I have no idea what you are talking about with this dogma reference.

    Do you?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #1212
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Prague, Czech Rep.
    Last Seen
    10-10-12 @ 02:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,880

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I hope when you wrote that you had some coherent point you were trying to make because it utterly got derailed but the time it ended up on screen.

    I have no idea what you are talking about with this dogma reference.

    Do you?
    Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

  3. #1213
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    I think his karma ran over your dogma!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #1214
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,105

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    And what stupid point was that, the fact that those who own the means of production do, in fact, attempt to get as much money for them at market as they can? Do you really deny this phenomenon?
    of course not. I deny that there is some kind of secretive illuminati out there controlling how much you will pay for tomatos.

    Actually, they can. It is their product. According to the tenets of free market capitalism, they can charge whatever the hell they want. They might not stay in business very long if they ask too much, but nevertheless, it is their prerogative.
    precisely. the market will ensure that people who attempt to charge than people are willing to pay will be fail and their businesses will die.

    and the exact same thing is true of labor..

    Actually, they are that. The cost of a loaf of bread does not vary widely from store to store in any given market, nor does the cost of housing per square foot.
    that is correct. market competition forces prices down generally common levels, where production plus transport plus storage plus all other expenses etc. plus acceptable profit margins are generally equivalent.

    The point of the matter is that those who own such products and bring them to market invariably sell them with every intention of maximizing profits, either sooner or later. This is the basic business strategy: to maximize profits.
    Precisely. So, who is makes more profits - Wal Mart, or your Mom&Pop?

    You wanna cut the crap? Of course the cost of food has decreased significantly over the past 100 years, but this is a function of ever increasing technological efficiency in the areas of food production and distribution in an arena of competitive capitalism.
    bingo. competitive capitalism. Not some secretive cabal of nabobs.

    It is certainly not a function of the good will of the capitalists engaged in said production and distribution.
    Indeed. That is the beauty of free trade - it turns our self-interest into others' benefit. It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest.

    Every one of them has every intention of selling their products for the most money they can possibly get for them, even if they have to sell for less in order to undercut their competition long enough to eliminate them so that they can one day be free to charge whatever they want when they are the only game in town.
    except that time and time again when they do that they find... they aren't the only game in town. And, so long as government does not conspire with business to artificially raise the price of entry beyond the ability of start-ups; they never will be.

    I want a new socioeconomic system. You won't find me bailing out corporate entities that are too big to fail.
    Indeed, there is no such thing as too big to fail. That's like saying something is too heavy to fall. But you don't need a new socioeconomic system for that - you simply need to remove the parasites and barnacles that have encrusted this one.

    Actually, it is the workers who keep the whole damn enterprise in production. Without them, there is no corporation.
    actually it's the capital that keeps the whole damn enterprise in production. Without it, there is no corporation in the first place. (see how stupid that game is?)

    Labor is an input. It is a portion of the cost of production.

    This is why collective bargaining is so effective, at least when it can be practiced without fear of intimidation or reprisal.
    Indeed. Just as, for example, if you had the ability to use force to stop a newspaper from being able to purchase ink. Or if you had the ability to stop a grocer from being able to purchase food. Or if you had the ability to stop a mechanic from using his hands. If you can coercively interfere with the market to keep someone from purchasing an available product or service... yeah, you can reduce their abilities to produce and provide.

    Unfortunately, you see what you want to see. You are obviously educated. I refuse to believe that you are totally ignorant of the gross exploitation of labor which occurred during the 19th and early 20th century, exploitation which quite literally forced the hand of labor to unionize. What exactly do you think is wrong with your mind that you can repress your awareness of this history so completely?
    .... I am educated enough to realize that the 21st century economy thus far does not appear made up entirely of 19th century mining camps?

    we talk about working conditions in the 19th century through 21st century lenses and are shocked. Apparently they were better than the farms so many people were leaving.

    While you're at it, ask your brother what sort of wage he might be earning right now if there was never such a thing as UAW.
    it's an interesting thought experiment. If the American auto companies had never unionized, their products probably would have been higher quality and their prices lower, which would mean that the Japanese companies never would have been able to invade and take over so much of their market share. Very likely, he wouldn't be working for Toyota because Toyota never would have had such an excellent opportunity to sell a better product at a lower price to Americans.

    But I'm pretty sure he would still be doing fine. Thanks partially to our low quality (unionized) public educational system, there is a shortage of science and technology workers in this country.

    Do you mean to say that it is those damn real estate developers who keep raising the cost of housing for union workers who are to blame, or are you suggesting that the union workers pitch a tent instead of asking for an increase in their wage.
    I am saying that the same thing that you said above. The minimum price that real estate developers can sell housing and survive is slightly above the price of production. When you raise the price of production by unionizing the workforce, therefore, you raise that minimum amount that they can sell at and survive. You have increased the costs that the developer has to recoup.

    Then who sets them?... Wait, don't tell me, those damn unions! Right?
    Nope. Generally speaking (government interference aside), nobody "sets" prices. Unions simply force them higher than they otherwise would have been.

    And what ultimately defines demand? What is the quintessential core determinant of demand? Here's a hint: IT IS NOT SUPPLY!!!
    that is incorrect. Demand as it is economically expressed is a function of Supply. You have to have something before you can trade it for something else.

    Not exactly. Try again.
    is this the "nuh-uh!!!" defense, of elementary school yard fame?

    I made no such reference.
    indeed you did.

    In fact, no such event has ever happened, not even in the aftermath of the Black Death when demand for labor was at an all-time high.
    what a fascinating theory. how do you account for the fact that that is precisely what we have generally seen over the last century? The price of labor has consistently increased, while the portion of labors' income that it must spend on the necessities has decreased.

  5. #1215
    Advisor jpevans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    10-17-12 @ 05:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    338

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?


    How many times have Union leaders called out against a National Strike? As their power decreases the chance of a National Strike increases. Winter truely is coming!

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I saw you claim that they would because "people would react". I failed to see you lay out a plan for how a public sector union movement came back from it's recent setbacks, losses, and increasing inability to depend upon protection from Democrats in an era where states and localities have no choice but to par back expenses, and they are it.

    I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

  6. #1216
    Advisor jpevans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Last Seen
    10-17-12 @ 05:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    338

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?


    The fact of the matter is that the Unions were formed in response to the exploytation of workers. On the list of things that they contributed to the working class include pulling kids out of the mines & sweat shops, the 40 hour week with Overtime, Paid Vacation, Safety Regulation & so much more.
    The fact that those who would benefit from the support of a Union are opposed to Unions, while it defies all logic, is nothing new. The thugs who beat striking workers with bats & 2x4's were not the robber Barons themselves but riff-raff from the working class.

    I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

  7. #1217
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:15 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,799

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Yes, I knew what dogma means. What I have no idea about is why you used it in speaking about me.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #1218
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is correct. market competition forces prices down generally common levels, where production plus transport plus storage plus all other expenses etc. plus acceptable profit margins are generally equivalent.
    And who decides what that is?

    Let's ask Gates or Jobs what their "acceptable profit margins" are and how that applies to the cost of computer software. LOL! How about Phillips66 and QuickTrip on gas prices? We'll most likely hear the same from all of them, "As much as the market will bear!" Same market, same variables, same equation, therefore, the same result at the end. You may as well call it a monopoly for all the variation there is. Oh, sure, you might find a few minor things that actually have some real variations but they're pretty rare.


    Seriously, that has got to be one of the craziest things I have ever heard you say. All the "acceptable profit margin" does is set a lower limit on price - what businesses will often label as "cost" (even though it really isn't). How many products sell at cost? Virtually none.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-19-12 at 10:37 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #1219
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    except that time and time again when they do that they find... they aren't the only game in town. And, so long as government does not conspire with business to artificially raise the price of entry beyond the ability of start-ups; they never will be.
    You should read the history of Standard Oil some time, you seem to have missed it.

    No government conspiracy there. Just plain, old fashioned raw capitalism at work creating one of the biggest monopolies in our country's history.


    A more recent example of market share abuse was Intel, roughly 2002-2007.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-19-12 at 10:55 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #1220
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I am saying that the same thing that you said above. The minimum price that real estate developers can sell housing and survive is slightly above the price of production. When you raise the price of production by unionizing the workforce, therefore, you raise that minimum amount that they can sell at and survive. You have increased the costs that the developer has to recoup.
    But you haven't changed the selling price of the house one bit. The developer will still sell the house for all the market will bear, in the vast majority of cases 30-40% above cost. The increase in cost for using union labor is peanuts compared to the other costs associated with housing developments.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •