View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1201
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Nothing exist in vacum. Sometimes the "cure" hurts more than doing nothing.
    You response does not answer the question. Perhaps you can explain how this cure is best?
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah. And he did it on a forum about public unions. Whose jobs can't be outsourced.




    All-together, though, I have to say I'm pleased with this thread. Not a single person thus far has offered a reasonable path forward for public unions to regain their slipping power and prestige.
    And an ostrich can claim there is no daylight either.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I saw you claim that they would because "people would react". I failed to see you lay out a plan for how a public sector union movement came back from it's recent setbacks, losses, and increasing inability to depend upon protection from Democrats in an era where states and localities have no choice but to par back expenses, and they are it.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I saw you claim that they would because "people would react". I failed to see you lay out a plan for how a public sector union movement came back from it's recent setbacks, losses, and increasing inability to depend upon protection from Democrats in an era where states and localities have no choice but to par back expenses, and they are it.
    We are simply on the far end of the rightward swing of the pendulum. It will go back - it always does. That is the nature of our system. The right will overplay its hand as it is already doing and sooner or later they will pay for it and the pendulum goes back the other way.

    I am 62 years old. I have been around long enough and have both studied and taught history to know this reality of life.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We are simply on the far end of the rightward swing of the pendulum. It will go back - it always does. That is the nature of our system. The right will overplay its hand as it is already doing and sooner or later they will pay for it and the pendulum goes back the other way.

    I am 62 years old. I have been around long enough and have both studied and taught history to know this reality of life.
    Who are you kidding? You haven't studied history and don't try to hide behind your teaching experience. Your posts speak for themselves on what knowledge you actually have.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We are simply on the far end of the rightward swing of the pendulum. It will go back - it always does. That is the nature of our system. The right will overplay its hand as it is already doing and sooner or later they will pay for it and the pendulum goes back the other way.

    I am 62 years old. I have been around long enough and have both studied and taught history to know this reality of life.
    While I agree with your analogy I am unsure if we have reached the full travel of the right-wing swing. The past 'left-wing' swing began in '06 and continued again in '08. The 'swing back' began in '10 but I don't think it has fully extended or move back to the 'center' much. I personally see a split decision this November...but that is a subject for another thread.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Who are you kidding? You haven't studied history and don't try to hide behind your teaching experience. Your posts speak for themselves on what knowledge you actually have.
    Well you got me finally. I only have a seventh grade education and have been on public assistance the last forty four years less the seven for that stint in the pen for voter fraud.

    Some of the warriors of the far right are really too much. Just because people disagree with you suddenly they think they can discredit every thing someone may have done in their lives and all they know.

    Are they that insecure?

    It matters not to me if you have a Ph. D. in five different things and fifty years experience. I am not going to try to take that away from you.

    My posts do indeed speak for themselves and what they have done is demonstrate that there is far more behind them than my own self imposed belief system.

    But go ahead, insult me some more in the hopes it gives your own musings increased credibility.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-18-12 at 03:14 PM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    While I agree with your analogy I am unsure if we have reached the full travel of the right-wing swing. The past 'left-wing' swing began in '06 and continued again in '08. The 'swing back' began in '10 but I don't think it has fully extended or move back to the 'center' much. I personally see a split decision this November...but that is a subject for another thread.
    I would tend to agree. November will tell us much. But the pendulum does indeed swing back as one side always overreaches. Americans tend NOT to like open ideological conflict and tend to drift back to the center after forays to the fringes from time to time.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post

    My posts do indeed speak for themselves and what they have done is demonstrate that there is far more behind them than my own self imposed belief system.
    I have read many of your posts, and it seems to me highly ridiculous that you have come to that conclusion considering the dim bulb of dogma which invariably betrays anything of yours that I have ever read.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    like it's my fault you made a stupid point.
    And what stupid point was that, the fact that those who own the means of production do, in fact, attempt to get as much money for them at market as they can? Do you really deny this phenomenon?

    actually they can't unless they have a monopoly.
    Actually, they can. It is their product. According to the tenets of free market capitalism, they can charge whatever the hell they want. They might not stay in business very long if they ask too much, but nevertheless, it is their prerogative.

    when they have a monopoly, it is because they are being protected by, or are government. The area's you mentioned (food, housing, etc) are not that, with the exception of utilities, which are protected by government and therefore can get away with fixing prices.
    Actually, they are that. The cost of a loaf of bread does not vary widely from store to store in any given market, nor does the cost of housing per square foot. The point of the matter is that those who own such products and bring them to market invariably sell them with every intention of maximizing profits, either sooner or later. This is the basic business strategy: to maximize profits.

    then perhaps you can explain things like this?

    or just generally

    don't theories involving secretive cabals of super rich power brokers secretly controlling the levers of the world belong (for good reason) in the conspiracy forum?
    You wanna cut the crap? Of course the cost of food has decreased significantly over the past 100 years, but this is a function of ever increasing technological efficiency in the areas of food production and distribution in an arena of competitive capitalism. It is certainly not a function of the good will of the capitalists engaged in said production and distribution. Every one of them has every intention of selling their products for the most money they can possibly get for them, even if they have to sell for less in order to undercut their competition long enough to eliminate them so that they can one day be free to charge whatever they want when they are the only game in town.

    I demand a new set of government. You won't find me doing things like supporting agricultural subsidies.
    I want a new socioeconomic system. You won't find me bailing out corporate entities that are too big to fail.

    the greed of people in corporations is no greater or less than the greed of people in unions. The difference being, in order to succeed, corporations have to create something. Unions just have to take something.
    Actually, it is the workers who keep the whole damn enterprise in production. Without them, there is no corporation. This is why collective bargaining is so effective, at least when it can be practiced without fear of intimidation or reprisal.

    I would tend to suspect that with unions making up a vanishingly small percentage of the private workforce, that this is for most employers a relatively small worry. What I've seen thus far has generally centered around an unwillingness to lose workers that one has trained, or that produce effectively, when others will require extra time and effort and lost productivity to get up to speed.
    Unfortunately, you see what you want to see. You are obviously educated. I refuse to believe that you are totally ignorant of the gross exploitation of labor which occurred during the 19th and early 20th century, exploitation which quite literally forced the hand of labor to unionize. What exactly do you think is wrong with your mind that you can repress your awareness of this history so completely?

    Really? I'll be sure to ask my brother who works in auto manufacturing about that. I'll write an email perhaps, or maybe just ask him next time I'm visiting him at the Toyota plant in Kentucky.
    While you're at it, ask your brother what sort of wage he might be earning right now if there was never such a thing as UAW.

    You ever wonder why it's unionized companies that have to seek elsewhere? You raise the cost of something beyond what the market will bear... and it won't bear it for long.
    Do you mean to say that it is those damn real estate developers who keep raising the cost of housing for union workers who are to blame, or are you suggesting that the union workers pitch a tent instead of asking for an increase in their wage.

    no, it is reality. Housing prices aren't set by some kind of "Cabal Of Nabobs".
    Then who sets them?... Wait, don't tell me, those damn unions! Right? It is the unions who set the price of housing because... well, because... unions are just plain evil and this what they do. They insist that the real estate developers ask for increasingly higher rents and higher mortgages because they want to force their members to demand a higher wage from their employers. Yeah, that's it! It's the unions. The real estate developers actually have no say whatsoever in what prices they decide to market their wares. They just sit around and wait to be told by those damn union bosses what price to ask.

    supply and demand. housing prices fall and rise by supply and demand. however, you are right to point out that generally below the cost of production there is no supply.
    And what ultimately defines demand? What is the quintessential core determinant of demand? Here's a hint: IT IS NOT SUPPLY!!!

    if the demand for money v housing decreases, then the demand for housing increases and so does the price. what you are describing is inflation, where that occurs.
    Not exactly. Try again.

    the one you referenced, wherein the price of everything but labor decreases.
    I made no such reference. In fact, no such event has ever happened, not even in the aftermath of the Black Death when demand for labor was at an all-time high.

    why must housing be special? we had a bubble, it popped. The government is trying to reinflate the bubble because that's a feel-good policy, and so it continues to suffer. In the meantime, the nominal price of food does indeed increase, along with a smaller increase in the real price due to artificial energy shortages. You are right that inflation is reported lower than it actually is due to the fact that they don't count food and energy, though. What did we think was going to happen when we started to monetize the debt?
    Well, at least we seem to agree that there is something terribly wrong with our socioeconomic system at its most basic foundations. Resting a socioeconomic system on a philosophical illusion and a mathematical fiction is bound to result in failure in the fullness of time.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

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