View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #111
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Republicans will find a new scapegoat and then unions will be fine.
    scapegoat assumes no real blame-thus the analogy fails

  2. #112
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    still waiting for someone to tell me what legitimate need is filled by public sector unions
    I sense that, for you, there is no legitimate need, so it's a false proposal to state that you're actually waiting for someone to state one.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  3. #113
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    scapegoat assumes no real blame-thus the analogy fails
    No, scapegoat assumes that they are being targetted for blame that is not rightly theirs.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  4. #114
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I have no problem with you having that opinion which is why I said "many workers" and not "all." It depends on the profession and for teachers, firefighters and police officers, I think unions are necessary.
    Yes. Explicitly you argued that sectors that are involved in public safety are prime candidates for unionization, and implicitly you suggested this is because public unions will somehow provide a better service. I point out that the military is a public sector involved in providing public safety, but the specter of what happens when the military begins to steer government is one whose effects we are all too familiar with. the incentives and effects are the same for the others - government by the government for the government is an extractive enterprise in which special interests fatten themselves at the public expense.

    When you allow a School Board to fire teachers based on their students' scores when such scores are impacted by many things outside the teacher's control, not only do you allow unfair firings, you enable the quality of your district to decrease.
    or (more plausibly) you enable them to get rid of poor teachers and you allow the quality of your district to increase.

    Both.
    an attempt to side-step the question. why should we allow sectors of the government to control themselves, thus making them unaccountable to the citizenry?

    Just as public sector unions can hold government officials accountable for any poor treatment of public employees that occurs.
    In that occurs then the good employees quit and the public holds the government officials to account. If they have broken the law, they can be sued. Public Union members, however, are hardly if at all vulnerable to being held to account for providing poor services.

  5. #115
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Not the end of public unions, but I think we are witnessing the end of inflexible and burdensome public pensions, etc.
    That might be. However, as fungibility increases, I wouldn't be surprised to see money and people leave states dominated by their public unions at the same pace that we've seen capital flee businesses and industries similarly controlled. To an extent, we are already seeing this, with large flight of productive persons from California.

  6. #116
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    As a free man you have the right to form a union. And I as a free man have the right to fire you for doing so. The fact of the matter is, you have no right to work for me. I hire you because I need or want to pay for your services. If you are going to be a pain in my ass and form a union, I have every right to fire you. Truth is, I dont need a reason to fire you, just as you dont need a reason to quit.
    Perfectly put.

  7. #117
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, scapegoat assumes that they are being targetted for blame that is not rightly theirs.

    I agree that is a better way of putting it.

  8. #118
    Sometimes wrong

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    similarly situated is a term of art that labor attorneys use. I don't disagree with what you say but I am not going to bore you with a bunch of citations to 6th circuit opinions but similarly situated employees generally have to be performing at the same level etc
    I am glad that you won't "bore me" with a judges OPINION of what differences exist in the eyes of an employer (or even among the workers themselves). Just as no judge can assign "fair" grades to school children, no judge can assign "fair" pay rates to workers. The simple fact is that judges must follow the law, and the law must adhere to the constitution. Some states (even cities) have established their own minimum wage laws, and have signed moronic union labor contract labor agreements. If a "fair" pay rate law, such as the Davis-Bacon act were passed it SHOULD be deemed unconstitutional based on equal protection. Why is it the legal and fair "pervailing" wage ONLY for federal contrct work if that same wage is, in fact, NEVER found outside of federal contract work? Many times I see ads for work at HALF of the Davis-Bacaon act labor rates, just as I see ads for work at HALF of the gov't employee pay rates. It is way past time to examine the REAL wage/benefit packages (in relation to the TRUE prevailing wage/benefits in actual private use) that the taxpayers are FORCED to support, with NO recourse once "their" reprsentative makes a "lifetime" promise to some union of gov't employee leaches. I do not seek to make gov't employment the job of last resort, but certainly not FORCE the taxpayer to pay TWICE (or more) the prevailing wages for the "same" work. It should NOT take wages of 3x or 4x the minimum wage to find a "qualified" crossing guard to monitor a school zone.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #119
    Sage

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are trying a strawman. We aren't arguing over the Right to Work (though I would support it) in the private sector. We are talking about Public Sector Unions. In the Private Sector, we have stated several times here that we are fine with closed shops so long as you also allow non-union shops. If you aren't going to allow non-union shops, then you should allow the Right to Work. Government simply shouldn't tilt the balance of power in favor of either actor.
    no strawman, the absolute truth..and cp, you already have the 'right to work'...you don't have to work in a union shop, you can find a non union shop to your liking. to pretend that you don't have a choice is absurd and dishonest.

  10. #120
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    no strawman, the absolute truth..and cp, you already have the 'right to work'...you don't have to work in a union shop, you can find a non union shop to your liking. to pretend that you don't have a choice is absurd and dishonest.
    Then if you want to work for a union shop go to where one already exists and dont impose one on my company.

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