View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1161
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    But a fairly large proportion of public school teachers are not covered under legally binding contracts. In fact, there are some 10 states in which there are virtually no legally binding K-12 teacher contracts at all (there are none in AL, AZ, GA, MS, NC, SC, TX, and VA; there is only one district with a contract in LA, and two in AR). Districts in a few of these states have entered into what are called “meet and confer” agreements about salary, benefits, and other working conditions, but administrators have the right to break these agreements at will. For all intents and purposes, these states are largely free of many of the alleged “negative union effects.”

    Here’s a simple proposition: If teacher union contracts are the main problem, then we should expect to see at least somewhat higher achievement outcomes in the 10 states where there are basically no binding contracts.

    So, let’s take a quick look at how states with no contracts compare with the states that have them.

    In states where there are binding contracts, there is some variation in coverage (the percentage of teachers covered under contracts). In most of them (34, plus Washington D.C.), districts are required to bargain with unionized teachers, and coverage in these states is very high. There are a few other states in which contracts are binding once they’re finished, but districts are not required to bargain (Louisiana also technically falls into this category, but since Katrina, there is only one contract in force). The results for these states are virtually identical to those for the bargaining states.

    In the table below, using data from the 2009 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), I present average scale scores for states that currently have binding teacher contracts and those that don’t. The averages are weighted by grade-level enrollment, and they include only public non-charter schools (since most charters in all states have no contracts).


    Average 2009 NAEP Score By State Teacher Contract Laws

    States with binding teacher contracts
    4th grade: Math 240.0 Reading 220.7
    8th grade: Math 282.1 Reading 263.7

    States without binding teacher contracts
    4th grade: Math 237.7 Reading 217.5
    8th grade: Math 281.2 Reading 259.5

    As the table shows, the states in which there are no teachers covered under binding agreements score lower than the states that have them. Moreover, even though they appear small, all but one of these (8th grade math) are rather large differences.

    The Answer Sheet - The real effect of teachers union contracts

    Still looking.

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  2. #1162
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    CP, interesting classroom size information:

    Decreases have continued since then, and the public school pupil/teacher ratio was 15.3 in 2008. By comparison, the pupil/teacher ratio for private schools was estimated at 13.1 in 2008. The average class size in 200708 was 20.0 pupils for public elementary schools and 23.4 pupils for public secondary schools.

    Fast Facts

    So private school teachers, without unions and plus working conditions have fewer students. Hummm.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #1163
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    from cpwill

    You will notice that the private sector union membership has been on decline for over half a century now, and public sector union membership drops dramatically as soon as its' members are given the option.
    You ended your sentence too soon. Allow to me to help.

    Public sector union membership drops dramatically as soon as its' members are given the option to get its full benefits but save on paying dues.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Only five states do not allow collective bargaining for educators, effectively banning teachers unions. Those states and their SAT/ACT rankings are as follows:

    South Carolina – 50th

    North Carolina – 49th

    Georgia – 48th

    Texas – 47th

    Virginia – 44th

    Meanwhile ground zero of the union battle, Wisconsin, is ranked 2nd in the country.

    Read more: The Five States Where Teachers Unions Are Illegal Have The Lowest Test Scores In America* - Business Insider

    I'm still trying to find national numbers CP, but here are states that don't even have a union. Are they overwhelmingly unionized?
    That data is from 1999. Most of those states has seen considerably improvement since 1999. I will just take their ACT ranking and add it with their SAT ranking and divide it

    South Carolina – 45

    North Carolina – 30.5

    Georgia – 42.5

    Texas – 40

    Virginia – 23.5

    If banning collective barganing for teahcers is so bad, why have all of the states seen massive improvements in their SAT/ACT rankings?
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-17-12 at 11:33 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You describing this as "ending a tax break for outsourcing" explains a lot, too.

    from your article:
    What's your point, are you blaming the 4 conservative Democrats or the entire GOP party for blocking the bill to stop providing tax breaks for outsourcing?


    Has there ever been a political party more dedicated to the notion that the secret to getting all those gold eggs is killing the goose?
    Where are these golden goose eggs you see that you think the GOP should continue to provide tax breaks for outsourcing?
    Last edited by Catawba; 06-18-12 at 12:20 AM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What's your point, are you blaming the 4 conservative Democrats or the entire GOP party for blocking the bill to stop providing tax breaks for outsourcing?

    Where are these golden goose eggs you see that you think the GOP should continue to provide tax breaks for outsourcing?
    What is the point of punishing outsourcing if it hurts the economy more than it helps?

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    What is the point of punishing outsourcing if it hurts the economy more than it helps?
    How is outsourcing more US jobs better for the economy and the working class in this country?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    How is outsourcing more US jobs better for the economy and the working class in this country?
    Nothing exist in vacum. Sometimes the "cure" hurts more than doing nothing.

  9. #1169
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Only five states do not allow collective bargaining for educators, effectively banning teachers unions. Those states and their SAT/ACT rankings are as follows:

    South Carolina – 50th

    North Carolina – 49th

    Georgia – 48th

    Texas – 47th

    Virginia – 44th

    Meanwhile ground zero of the union battle, Wisconsin, is ranked 2nd in the country.

    Read more: The Five States Where Teachers Unions Are Illegal Have The Lowest Test Scores In America* - Business Insider
    Yeah, I've seen this stuff before, I remember when the unionista's brought it out during the Wisconsin thing.

    Here's something interesting though: it turns out that when you have a large number of hispanic immigrants, it drags down your state-wide scores. Who knew?

    ...During the recent struggle over collective-bargaining rights in Wisconsin, a number of left-of-center observers, including New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, pointed out that students in unionized Wisconsin do better on average than students in non-unionized Texas. The obvious conclusion, or so we were led to believe, is that teachers’ unions lead to better education.

    There is, however, a problem with this argument. Drawing on data from the 2009 National Assessment of Educational Progress, the political commentator David Burge pointed out that white students in Texas outperform white students in Wisconsin, black students in Texas outperform black students in Wisconsin, and Hispanic students in Texas outperform Hispanic students in Wisconsin. This may look like a statistical paradox; Wisconsin does better on average, even though all groups do worse in Wisconsin. But there is an explanation: Wisconsin has a considerably larger share of white students than Texas, and white students tend to fare better than black and Hispanic students. This example highlights the increasing importance of demographics to the American education debate...
    Gosh, that's interesting.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-18-12 at 01:23 AM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    How is outsourcing more US jobs better for the economy and the working class in this country?
    It allows us to maximize our competitive advantage while lowering our cost of living.

    You may have noticed how the passage of NAFTA failed to produce the predicted "sucking sound of jobs fleeing", and the 1990's failed to occur?
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-18-12 at 01:42 AM.

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