View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1101
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Unions hold public office?
    Often they will elect their own, certainly. More often public unions will wield significant political power to put politicians in power who are beholden to them (and who know what will happen should they commit heresy).

    So, public officials have no responsibility, are not accountable to the voters, and cannot control state budgets.
    Depends on the state. What are seeing is, the more powerful the public union, the more difficult to impossible controlling state budgets is. In California, for example, 80 cents of every public dollar goes to... public unions. And the state is in a fiscal nightmare because they are extremely powerful, and refuse to allow it to cut spending.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    from Camlon

    Again, you are thinking like a simpleton.
    If true, that is about 100 IQ points above the level you seem to be operating at.

    I told you why I am not comparing for more variables to find household income in each state. Because trying to do so will make it worse.
    Only for your ideological position based on your own beliefs.

    You will certainly end up with comparing for irrelevant variables, or dependent variables. Also, your results is extremely dependent on what factors you adjust for, and how you adjust for them. Your study make itself worthless by adjusting for factors such as the age of the state and unemployment rate.
    All I insist on is comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You reject that. I must say that in all my years I have never encountered anyone who defends a surface study over a detailed study. You take the prize for that.

    You strongly DO NOT WANT TO COMPARE apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You simply want to go into the grocery store and make broad and sweeping statements about the average price of a grocery item compared to the average price of a grocery item in a different store. Don't confuse you with facts. To you it makes no difference that one grocery store A carries 6,000 different items while grocery store B contains but 1,000 different items. To you it makes no difference that store A is in a very upscale area while store B is in a economically depressed area. To you it makes no difference that store A caters to ethnic populations with different dietary needs that store B does. To you it makes no difference that store A was only recently built and is state of the art while store B is sixty years old and has not been remodeled in thirty five years. To you it makes no difference that store A is four times the size of store B.

    So store B runs an ad which proclaims OUR PRICES ARE CHEAPER THAN STORE A.

    In reality, their average price of a sum of all their items, they do have a point. However, when you examine the items both stores sell and exclude the low bargain basement line of store B and the expensive items of store A - here is what you discover

    *** comparing the same 1 1/2 pound loaf of Brownberry rye bread - store A is fifteen cents cheaper than store B.
    *** comparing the same 64 ounce size of Ocean Spray Apple juice - store A is thirty cents cheaper than store B.
    *** comparing the same half-gallon of Sunk Kist orange juice - store A is twenty cents cheaper than store B.
    And in 300 other common items that both stores sell - Store A is cheaper than store by by 7% over all.

    Item to item of the same thing - store A is cheaper.

    But you would support store B in their claim that their average price is cheaper.

    Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Compare like workers also. If you do not - you are engaging in intellectual dishonest and outright fraud.

    You personify the right wing zealot who is willing to skew information any way you have to skew it to "prove" your point.

    I noticed that you completely ignored the grocery store comparison. Now if I did that you would make that a major issue in the next five pages of your posts.

    And, you can rest your arms now and quite patting yourself on the back. I NEVER said that right to work states workers earn more. In fact, they earn less.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

    In summary, these statistics indicate that in RTW states, wages are 9.4% lower


    Now I did cut out the next part about cost of living as a favor to you because you so do hate discussing any other fact beside the simple gross numbers. You are welcome.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-15-12 at 06:16 PM.
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  3. #1103
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Often they will elect their own, certainly. More often public unions will wield significant political power to put politicians in power who are beholden to them (and who know what will happen should they commit heresy).



    Depends on the state. What are seeing is, the more powerful the public union, the more difficult to impossible controlling state budgets is. In California, for example, 80 cents of every public dollar goes to... public unions. And the state is in a fiscal nightmare because they are extremely powerful, and refuse to allow it to cut spending.
    So a majority in these states a union members? I'd like to see those numbers.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    So a majority in these states a union members? I'd like to see those numbers.
    Who said they would be? You are trying to create a strawman.

  6. #1106
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post


    And you wonder why we're sending blue collar jobs to China as fast as we can.

  7. #1107
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_rebson View Post
    And you wonder why we're sending blue collar jobs to China as fast as we can.
    Nah. Now China is losing jobs to Vietnam and India.

    Besides, there are manufacturing jobs growing here in the States. Even automakers. Just not unionized ones .

  8. #1108
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If true, that is about 100 IQ points above the level you seem to be operating at.
    Seriously, that is the best you can do. Just say I am dumber. You are proving my point, you are a simpleton. You need to start thinking in a more sophisticated manner.

    All I insist on is comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You reject that. I must say that in all my years I have never encountered anyone who defends a surface study over a detailed study. You take the prize for that.
    No, I reject your study, because you are unable to defend it. Hence you are not comparing oranges to oranges. I told you, if you want to use your study then you need to defend it. Is that so difficult to understand?

    I am just going to repeat what I said last time, and don't ignore it this time
    Let us say someone presented a partisan right wing study who show that unions are terrible. Then you look at it, and find a lot of flaws. Then he ignore all your arguments, and only when you write it bold and increase the size by 5 times, he responds. He says, I am unable to defend the study because I am not him. But you still need to accept still all finding in his study.
    You would never accept that, so why do you think I should accept it?

    Also why do you keep ignoring any argument you find difficult?

    I noticed that you completely ignored the grocery store comparison. Now if I did that you would make that a major issue in the next five pages of your posts.
    As pointed out, I am ignoring it because it is not relevant to the point. Your study is not comparing oranges to oranges. And I am not even trying to do that. I am just comparing who earns more adjusted for costs.

    And, you can rest your arms now and quite patting yourself on the back. I NEVER said that right to work states workers earn more. In fact, they earn less.
    I have already proven they do. Household income adjusted for costs in RTW states are higher. You did not deny it.

    You instead said we should check what an equivalent worker earns, but you are unable to show what an equivalent worker earns because your study is debunked.

    You can cry, scream, be as mad as you can. But as long as you are not defending your study, then it is worthless. It is that simple.
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-15-12 at 09:10 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    As an aside, I actually find cottage industries/Mom & Pops to be quite acceptable. That's not where the problems lie. It's MegaCorp & Co that creates most of the problems in the capitalist system.
    What sorts of problems do you see being created by larger businesses?

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Camlon

    you badly need to check the needle on the phonograph record. Its been stuck in a rut for days now and it just keep repeating the same old tired and lousy notes over and over and over again.

    I have been defending the study......

    over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over yet again. I have told you repeatedly that the study cited by Lafer is solid and is far far superior to anything you mentioned because precisely that it considers over 40 different variables and measures apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

    Your reply: nanananana --- and stick your fingers in your ears.

    So I attempted to get you away from your beloved right to work and show you a different example using the grocery store but apparently you are not up to the intellectual task of being able to make that mental leap.

    By this time I wonder if you are some sort of robot program.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-15-12 at 10:42 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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