View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1091
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    from Camlon

    What did I tell you about aims, Haymarket.
    You confuse me with someone who actually is concerned what your aims are and is willing to then suspend disbelief because of them.

    My aim is not to see what an equivilant worker will earn in each state, My aim was to check what an average worker earns in each state. Go up and read what I wrote, then you see that I proved that an average worker earns more.
    Thank you for stating that so clearly.

    You do not care what equivalent workers make in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care what like workers make in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care what similar workers in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care to compare high school grad female secretaries in urban areas with similar high school grad female secretaries in urban areas in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care to compare college grad male engineers in suburban areas with similar college grad male engineers in suburban areas in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care to compare middle school teachers with masters degrees with similar middle school teachers with masters degrees in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    Yes, we get that loud and clear.

    You strongly DO NOT WANT TO COMPARE apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You simply want to go into the grocery store and make broad and sweeping statements about the average price of a grocery item compared to the average price of a grocery item in a different store. Don't confuse you with facts. To you it makes no difference that one grocery store A carries 6,000 different items while grocery store B contains but 1,000 different items. To you it makes no difference that store A is in a very upscale area while store B is in a economically depressed area. To you it makes no difference that store A caters to ethnic populations with different dietary needs that store B does. To you it makes no difference that store A was only recently built and is state of the art while store B is sixty years old and has not been remodeled in thirty five years. To you it makes no difference that store A is four times the size of store B.

    Nope. Do not confuse Camlon with real world facts and differences which explain and provide detailed information about the complete picture.

    You simply want to pretend you are a broken record and keep claiming that the average grocery item in store A costs $2.36 each while the average grocery item in store B costs just $1.87 each and that is suppose to tell us that we all should be shopping at store B because the average item is cheaper to purchase.

    They say that the devil is in the details. And your refusal to look at the details of the Lafer study and accept them as solid research is positively intellectually dishonest in the extreme.

    Your comparison is irrelevant and meaningless. There is no substance to it and certainly no science to it. It is worthless.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-15-12 at 10:14 AM.
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  2. #1092
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So what you're saying is you are moving your goal posts and now claiming its just "individual" property rights that didn't exist ignoring personal property existed even then.
    Shall we revisit the posts that started all this before continuing forward?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You aren't really responding to my position. Whose proceeds they are is a decision we make as a society.
    No we don't. Its a fact of the matter who owns what.
    Its a fact? What do you mean? It's a fact that you stop at a red light and go at a green light too. That doesn't mean society didn't decide that was how we would do things.
    Property rights is crafted out of the natural order. Don't let that stop you though as it sure didn't stop marx from making an ass out of himself.
    That's horse crap! In the "natural order", that wild state we lived in for the past 200,000 years of our evolution, there was no "property" at all. People worked together as a tribe for the good of the tribe.
    I still hold to that position. The person who gathered the nuts did not barter them, they collected them for the tribe. The person who hulled the nuts with a rock did not own the rock or the nuts, they hulled the nuts for the tribe. The sharp rocks used for spear tips later in our history may have been consistently used by one person but I'm not sure he "owned" it in our modern day sense of ownership since he probably wasn't the person who made it in the first place. Most likely the best spear went to the best warrior, not the best spear maker, but I admit that's just an hypothesis.

    In any event, it was a collective existence, not an individual one of barter and exchange as you seem to suggest with your "natural order" tripe. People worked together as a tribe for the good of the tribe.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps you can then explain how Dr. Lafer is paid to go all over the nation giving seminars using his data and is well respected and honored for his work - despite the opinion of yourself.
    Explain this? Easy...as you so eloquently put it:

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    PT Barnum was right.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    you are pretty damn clever for early on Friday morning young man.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Shall we revisit the posts that started all this before continuing forward?
    I still hold to that position. The person who gathered the nuts did not barter them, they collected them for the tribe. The person who hulled the nuts with a rock did not own the rock or the nuts, they hulled the nuts for the tribe. The sharp rocks used for spear tips later in our history may have been consistently used by one person but I'm not sure he "owned" it in our modern day sense of ownership since he probably wasn't the person who made it in the first place. Most likely the best spear went to the best warrior, not the best spear maker, but I admit that's just an hypothesis.

    In any event, it was a collective existence, not an individual one of barter and exchange as you seem to suggest with your "natural order" tripe. People worked together as a tribe for the good of the tribe.
    I would agree with this, but I think the kind of sharing you describe would be taking place more at the family/clan level. In hunter gatherer societies, the families/clans generally live independently, only coming together as a tribe for infrequent regular meetings/festivals. Trade was generally carried on at such events.

    But in the main, I agree, in hunter gatherer societies, the family/clan operated in a mostly communal fashion, as families do today but on a somewhat larger scale.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I would agree with this, but I think the kind of sharing you describe would be taking place more at the family/clan level. In hunter gatherer societies, the families/clans generally live independently, only coming together as a tribe for infrequent regular meetings/festivals. Trade was generally carried on at such events.

    But in the main, I agree, in hunter gatherer societies, the family/clan operated in a mostly communal fashion, as families do today but on a somewhat larger scale.
    As an aside, I actually find cottage industries/Mom & Pops to be quite acceptable. That's not where the problems lie. It's MegaCorp & Co that creates most of the problems in the capitalist system.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Public Unions certainly do do damage to the state's red ink. But the claim you posted was that they are responsible for the fiscal collapse.
    Unions hold public office? So, public officials have no responsibility, are not accountable to the voters, and cannot control state budgets. The unions do this. And we know everyone is only talking about the unions because nto teaching in the summer is due to unions.


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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    They should be forced if they will in anyway benefit from something a union negotiates.
    Mechanics, construction workers, plumbers, and other trade workers, as well as other union dominated sectors should be forced into coercion to pay dues, regardless of whether that union does anything for them, or not? What a load of bull****. Unions should be option only, not prerequisite for any job.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Camlon
    You confuse me with someone who actually is concerned what your aims are and is willing to then suspend disbelief because of them.

    Thank you for stating that so clearly.

    You do not care what equivalent workers make in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care what like workers make in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care what similar workers in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care to compare high school grad female secretaries in urban areas with similar high school grad female secretaries in urban areas in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care to compare college grad male engineers in suburban areas with similar college grad male engineers in suburban areas in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    You do not care to compare middle school teachers with masters degrees with similar middle school teachers with masters degrees in different states with the only real difference being if the state has right to work or not.

    Yes, we get that loud and clear.
    Again, you are thinking like a simpleton. I told you why I am not comparing for more variables to find household income in each state. Because trying to do so will make it worse. You will certainly end up with comparing for irrelevant variables, or dependent variables. Also, your results is extremely dependent on what factors you adjust for, and how you adjust for them. Your study make itself worthless by adjusting for factors such as the age of the state and unemployment rate.

    Hence, the better way is to refine your aim to something you can absolutely prove. There is a reason US government look at life expectancy, and not life expectancy adjusted for an equivalent person.

    And thanks for finally admitting that I was right. People in right to work states earn more.


    They say that the devil is in the details. And your refusal to look at the details of the Lafer study and accept them as solid research is positively intellectually dishonest in the extreme.
    I already told you why. If you are unable to defend your study, then why do you expect me to take it seriously.

    If someone here presented some partisan right wing study that unions are terrible. Then you look at it, and find a lot of flaws. Then they ignore all your arguments, and only when you write it bold and increase the size by 5 times, they respond. They say, I am unable to defend the study because I am not him. But you still need to accept still all finding in his study.

    You would never accept that, so why do you think different rules apply for yourself?

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Shall we revisit the posts that started all this before continuing forward?
    I still hold to that position. The person who gathered the nuts did not barter them, they collected them for the tribe. The person who hulled the nuts with a rock did not own the rock or the nuts, they hulled the nuts for the tribe. The sharp rocks used for spear tips later in our history may have been consistently used by one person but I'm not sure he "owned" it in our modern day sense of ownership since he probably wasn't the person who made it in the first place. Most likely the best spear went to the best warrior, not the best spear maker, but I admit that's just an hypothesis.

    In any event, it was a collective existence, not an individual one of barter and exchange as you seem to suggest with your "natural order" tripe. People worked together as a tribe for the good of the tribe.
    So what you saying is that you continue to decide that the rules of the clan and their reality of survival in their environment meant that personal property did not exist. To do this you must forget all the little things they did not share and did individually. You continue to deny that people have always decided things as theirs and there is no society that didn't.

    Second, you said there was no property at all. Collective property is STILL property. In your last post you said individual property and admitted collective property existed changing your position.

    You original position is stated in this part here:

    That's horse crap! In the "natural order", that wild state we lived in for the past 200,000 years of our evolution, there was no "property" at all. People worked together as a tribe for the good of the tribe.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-15-12 at 04:31 PM.

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