View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1081
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Allright Boo, I'll bite. What other factor only helps the RTW states and doesn't help the non-RTW states?
    CP, that's just stupid. I did not suggest. I suggest that there are different factors in all states, and that unless you look at all of them, you don't know which ones are having the larger effect. It is ignorance to assume something si the cause without looking at all factors.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    If public sector unions are so effective, why don't workers in the private sector sign up to them?
    Because they can make more money in the private sector. You are not supposed to point out the obvious like that though because it blows the conservative's argument right out of the water that public union employees are better compensated than in the private sector!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I did? Maybe you should read more than the first paragraph or two, huh?

    In other words, for the past ~1 million years of our history - which includes the entire existence of H.sapiens and the later half of H.erectus - cooperation has been a more efficient strategy than aggression.

    Only the advent of agriculture, ~10k years ago, made killing a better scheme - and, again, this is still an inter-group strategy. Even then, individuals inside a group did not kill or miam each other. Individual property rights did not exist until thousands of years after the advent of agriculture. They're a very recent and very artificial construct.
    So what you're saying is you are moving your goal posts and now claiming its just "individual" property rights that didn't exist ignoring personal property existed even then.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-15-12 at 02:24 AM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Is there a reason you are posting dumb arguments instead of cartoons? I fail to see the distinction between cartoon-ish posts and actual cartoons on the subject.
    I don't see you defeating any of them.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    CP, that's just stupid. I did not suggest. I suggest that there are different factors in all states, and that unless you look at all of them, you don't know which ones are having the larger effect. It is ignorance to assume something si the cause without looking at all factors.
    You are right there are many factors to take into account, hence I normally do not use economic growth as my main argument.

    However, Haymarkets professor was clearly dishonest when he looked at the growth rate and concluded there was no correlation. His own data do show a correlation, and the data above show it even more clearly. For job growth he cherry picked states.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    You are right there are many factors to take into account, hence I normally do not use economic growth as my main argument.

    However, Haymarkets professor was clearly dishonest when he looked at the growth rate and concluded there was no correlation. His own data do show a correlation, and the data above show it even more clearly. For job growth he cherry picked states.
    He may have, and I may not have read back far enough. I merely saw your post, and as this type of thing is regular, on all sides, I felt the need to respond.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Haymarket, we all know that you think non-RTW states such as California are far superiour to RTW states. That is your personal preference. You can also believe his research, and I can't make you stop believing it.

    However, if you want me to accept his conclusions, then you need to defend his research. As you are not defending it, then please don't mention it again because it got no credibility.

    I have still proved that RTW states have a higher household income than non-RTW states. So right to work states have the right to work for more.
    You do realize that nobody died and appointed you god - right?

    You ask questions about decisions Dr. Lafer made that can only be answered by Dr. Lafer or people who worked with him. And then when they cannot be answered to the full depth of your satisfaction, you erroneously claim that you have discovered a 'flaw'.

    Nonsense.

    Dr. Lafer and the studies he uses have some forty categories of demographic information that they allow for as variables and you have nothing of the kind. And you then call that a 'flaw'.

    Nonsense.

    Dr. Lafer and his studies compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges while you compare apples to cinderblocks and oranges to dry wall.

    And when you do that, you engage in nonsense.

    You tell me to never again mention Dr. Lafer or his study because it has "no credibility". Perhaps you can then explain how Dr. Lafer is paid to go all over the nation giving seminars using his data and is well respected and honored for his work - despite the opinion of yourself.

    You can boast that you 'proved' something. Sorry, but I see nothing of the sort. What I see are these hard and true facts of reality

    ***Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.

    *** The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states, after controlling for individual, job, and state-level characteristics. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive ESI at this lower rate, 2 million fewer workers nationally would be covered.

    *** The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states, using the full complement of control variables in [the study's] regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.

    In RTW states - wages are lower. Health insurance coverage is lower. Pensions are fewer.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-15-12 at 07:28 AM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    the list from cpwill contained in the illustration about teachers

    1. Bankers wouldn't destroy the economy if they'd been better educated.
    2. Summer Vacations
    3. Teachers teach evolution, so God abandoned us.
    4. Teachers Pay represents money that could have instead gone to the financial industry.
    5. Unions are evil. Booga Booga.
    6. First Graders are not charged for their education, meaning they become accustomed to "getting" things.
    7. Teachers Unions support Democrats, which support giving mortgages to black people, which destroys the economy (the picture insinuates that this is a position of the KKK).
    8. Unions lower productivity, forcing bankers to provide sub-alt mortgages
    9. Voldermort formed a teachers union.
    10. Math Teachers are responsible for us knowing that we are in an economic mess
    There is lots of truth there. Over the years I have heard variations of many of these points. The point is not to prove that on December 17, 2004, at a conference in gary, Indiana, Dr. Freidrich VonWhacko stated that public school teachers sacrifice babies at their monthly union meetings. The point here is that the cartoon uses satire to tweak the critics of public education as well as those who would make light of some of our economic troubles.

    It is not meant to be taken as evidence in court of anything.

    Lets look at the list and see if there is reality or truth within the items on it.

    1. Bankers wouldn't destroy the economy if they'd been better educated.
    Right wingers take potshots at the dumbing down of America and blame teachers for that.

    2. Summer Vacations
    I have heard and read many times how teachers get three months off and that is simply unnecessary.

    3. Teachers teach evolution, so God abandoned us.
    Evolution in the school has been a right wing target going back to the Scopes trial.

    4. Teachers Pay represents money that could have instead gone to the financial industry.
    Teacher pay has long been a target of right wing ire.

    5. Unions are evil. Booga Booga.
    A basic tenet of right wing ideology.

    6. First Graders are not charged for their education, meaning they become accustomed to "getting" things.
    How many times have we heard the right wing scream on and on about nanny state government? The entitlement mentality? Teat suckers? the dependent class?

    7. Teachers Unions support Democrats, which support giving mortgages to black people, which destroys the economy (the picture insinuates that this is a position of the KKK).
    Connecting the dots between some right wing favorite targets - lots of right wingers have used the too liberal mortgage standards as their reason why the industry had problems.

    8. Unions lower productivity, forcing bankers to provide sub-alt mortgages
    The first half is basic right wing scripture - perhaps connecting the two is not strong - but the first half is undeniable as a platform of right wing thought.

    9. Voldermort formed a teachers union.
    I believe this was meant to be humorous.

    10. Math Teachers are responsible for us knowing that we are in an economic mess
    more humor.

    I think you fail to notice that cartoons - as part of their very nature - are intended to be humorous. They take things and exaggerate them, pull them and stretch them into caricatures with some truth contained within. They do this to satirize society or people and their views in that society.

    THEY ARE NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY AS THE GOSPEL TRUTH.

    Swift wrote about the foibles of people of his age through the person of Gulliver. There were no kingdoms like those in his book. There were no towering giants or miniature worlds. But there was truth there just the same.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-15-12 at 07:46 AM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You do realize that nobody died and appointed you god - right?
    Your posts are just getting dumber.

    You ask questions about decisions Dr. Lafer made that can only be answered by Dr. Lafer or people who worked with him. And then when they cannot be answered to the full depth of your satisfaction, you erroneously claim that you have discovered a 'flaw'.
    Complete BS. The reason you are unable to respond is because you have no response. There is no secret information. Just respond to the flaws I pointed out in his research,

    Dr. Lafer and the studies he uses have some forty categories of demographic information that they allow for as variables and you have nothing of the kind. And you then call that a 'flaw'.
    You think like a simpleton. The more indicators the better, you think. But if you use your brain in a more sophisticated manner, you realize that adjusting for too many factors can make it worse. Especially if some of the factors should not be adjusted for. He does not even seem to try.

    He adjust for unemployment rate and the age of the state. That makes his numbers completely worthless.

    You tell me to never again mention Dr. Lafer or his study because it has "no credibility". Perhaps you can then explain how Dr. Lafer is paid to go all over the nation giving seminars using his data and is well respected and honored for his work - despite the opinion of yourself.
    So is Newt Gingrich. Can I use Gingrich as an argument and expect you to accept any word he says.

    Use your brain Haymarket. What makes his study flawed is your inability to defend it. You can not expect me or anyone to take it seriously when you refuse to defend it. Is that so difficult to understand?

    You can boast that you 'proved' something. Sorry, but I see nothing of the sort. What I see are these hard and true facts of reality
    What did I tell you about aims, Haymarket.

    I told you that I specify my aim. My aim is not to see what an equivilant worker will earn in each state, My aim was to check what an average worker earns in each state. Go up and read what I wrote, then you see that I proved that an average worker earns more.

    ***Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.

    *** The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states, after controlling for individual, job, and state-level characteristics. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive ESI at this lower rate, 2 million fewer workers nationally would be covered.

    *** The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states, using the full complement of control variables in [the study's] regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.
    Why are you keep quoting a study you are unable to defend? Would you trust a partisan right wing study, that I couldn't even defend. No, you would just say it is BS. If you want to use your study as an argument, then start defending it.

    You said to me. You're not God. But you are not God as well. So why do you expect people to accept every word you say?
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-15-12 at 08:51 AM.

  10. #1090
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Are you kidding? These themes addressed in the cartoon have been made repeatedly in this thread:

    Unions are bad because they increase taxes.

    Teachers get summer vacations

    Teachers hurt the state economy

    Unions support Dems.
    Public Unions certainly do do damage to the state's red ink. But the claim you posted was that they are responsible for the fiscal collapse.

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