View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #1061
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Can you cite examples of leading conservatives on this board making any of those arguments?
    Please go back and reread my post. I was not limiting or referring to simply this board.

    And NO, I will not waste hours of time doing research for you finding the obvious when you can do it yourself. If you want to arrange an hourly rate, PM me and we will discuss something.

    To be quite blunt here, anyone discussing what is supposed to be wrong with public education and then denies every having anything like the positions put forth in that cartoon is simply playing ostrich or being world class disingenuous. And I strongly suspect you know that.
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-14-12 at 02:29 PM.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I love how the top bag makes no sense for what it is talking about, the middle bag is an oxymoron and the last one is born from partisan bull**** that has more to do with liberal ideas than anything else.

    Is there a reason you are posting dumb cartoons in the place of arguments? Is there a reason you want to come off as a hack?
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-14-12 at 03:12 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    If public sector unions are so effective, why don't workers in the private sector sign up to them?
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

  4. #1064
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I love how the top bag makes no sense for what it is talking about, the middle bag is an oxymoron and the last one is born from partisan bull**** that has more to do with liberal ideas than anything else.

    Is there a reason you are posting dumb cartoons in the place of arguments? Is there a reason you want to come off as a hack?
    You seem to have no sense of humor. I particularly like the last panel which I took as an homage to the dead Wicked Witch of the East from WIZARD OF OZ.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Camlon on the Dr. lafer study showing that workers in right to work states make $15,00 LESS even adjusting for cost of living than their same counterparts in union states:
    And it is **** study who you are unable to defend, and who adjust for factors that shouldn't be adjusted for.

    I would imagine that would be nearly impossible without infinite resources. So your answer is to adjust for none at all? That seems ridiculous on its face.
    1. I think you rather should try to state your aim more clearly. My aim, is to compare household income adjusted for costs. My aim is not to compare what a potential person could earn in another state. Because that is way too difficult, and your study obviously failed doing it.

    Since nobody seems to be doing this, it is an irrelevant question.
    2. He tried to adjust for 40 factors. Can't adjusting for that many factors make it worse, because in all likelihood, some of them are going to be dependent variables. Or just irrelevant.

    The problem is, to actually reach his aim, you need to adjust for hundreds of factors, but if you adjust for hundreds of factors, then you are going to adjust for factors that should not be adjusted for. Hence, trying to adjust for as many factors as possible, can make it worse. Instead you should refine your aim. And be very careful what you are adjusting for.

    Did you write what you meant to say? Are you really asking me why factors SHOULDN'T BE ADJUSTED FOR? I do not see the point here.
    3. No, I am asking you why he is adjusting for unemployment and the age of the state. If you know anything about statistics you would not know that not all variables can be adjusted for. Unemployment is clearly a dependent variable, and age of the state is just completely irrelevant.

    It did not say ther were the same. That is your own particular false assumption. I have no doubt that ALL female high school graduates living in rural environments are not the same either. So what? People in this business group people by common categories by which they share certain characteristics and commonalities. They do not have to be the same.
    4. The point is, you can not expect all people of one race to be the same. You can not expect Texas Hispanics to have the same income potential as Florida Hispanics. That is one of the reasons your study is so flawed.

    Your counterexample is flawed. If you prove it to be true, you are just making his study even more flawed.

    Perhaps - perhaps not. I would be glad to look at data in which you intentionally manipulate such factors but yet still produce a respected study.
    5. The difference in results is quite small. I think it is easy to tip it the other way. For instance umployment rate is clearly higher in non right to work states if you adjust for population. Removing the dependent variable unemployment should be enough to tip it the other way.

    You really need to stop believing blindly in studies, just because they support your view. Especially from partisan people who want to reach a certain conclusion before they even start.


    It was never ignored. It was read. It was considered. It was evaluated. It was judged. And it was rejected as without merit.
    It was never ignored, just not responded to 5 times? How does that make logical sense? Only when I made it bold, and 5 doubled the text size. Then you responded.

    And what was your response. "I disagree, but I am unable to explain why". I think that should say enough.
    Last edited by Camlon; 06-14-12 at 06:16 PM.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    We will agree to disagree.

    I feel that Dr. Lafer and the studies he cites are first rate pieces of research. I gave you reasons why and I gave you the reasons why I faulted your approach. I did explain why but apparently you wanted something more...................... exactly constituting what I do not know since I already explained my position quite clearly.

    What you see as "flaws" - for example comparing Texas Hispanics with Florida Hispanics - I do not see as a flaw at all. We both agree that no people are identical so its silly for you to keep beating tht drum as it is making no noise at all.

    You ask me to speak for Dr. Lafer and for the studies he cites when I clearly am not him. You want to have me explain to you the reasons behind his methodology and that is simply not available to me. That is not a weakness or a flaw - it is just the way it is.
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    What I posted is not changed by your minor edit.

    Now, if you'd like to discuss group ownership of land and 'production', as has been the case for most of our species history, then I'm all for it.
    Man, I have neither the time nor the inclination to go down that rabbit hole and explain why Rousseau was a fool on a thread about public union survival. I'll give it to you by default.

  8. #1068
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    If public sector unions are so effective, why don't workers in the private sector sign up to them?
    Private Sector unions face restrictions that Public ones do not, which hampers their extractive capabilities.

  9. #1069
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Please go back and reread my post. I was not limiting or referring to simply this board.

    And NO, I will not waste hours of time doing research for you finding the obvious when you can do it yourself. If you want to arrange an hourly rate, PM me and we will discuss something.

    Okay, well if you don't want to go to that much effort to back up your claim, I'll narrow the sample for you. Catawba posted the cartoon in this thread - clearly he felt this was where it fell into the discussion. Can you cite a single person on this thread arguing that teachers caused the fiscal collapse?

    To be quite blunt here, anyone discussing what is supposed to be wrong with public education and then denies every having anything like the positions put forth in that cartoon is simply playing ostrich or being world class disingenuous. And I strongly suspect you know that.
    I have never put forth the claim that any of those things caused the Great Recession. Nor have I seen any conservatives do so.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I feel that Dr. Lafer and the studies he cites are first rate pieces of research.
    You would say any research that supports your view is first rate. That is the kind of person you are.

    I gave you reasons why and I gave you the reasons why I faulted your approach. I did explain why but apparently you wanted something more...................... exactly constituting what I do not know since I already explained my position quite clearly.
    Liar, you never responded at all. I pointed that out 5 times, and you didn't even say a word. The only time you responded was when I made it bold and increased the size by 5 times, then you couldn't ignore it. If you really responded, then quote yourself. Problem is, you never did respond, so there is nothing to quote.

    If in case your memory is lacking. We are talking about the flaws I found in the study such as his cherrypicking or how he state the data do not show a correlation when it certainly does.

    What you see as "flaws" - for example comparing Texas Hispanics with Florida Hispanics - I do not see as a flaw at all. We both agree that no people are identical so its silly for you to keep beating tht drum as it is making no noise at all.
    Of course you don't. You will never see a flaw in any study that support your view. That is the kind of person you are. Fact is, the study assumes all black, all white, all hispanics are the same. They all have the same income potential. That is completly incorrect, and obviously reading from your responses you are completely unable to respond to it. You disagree, care to explain why.

    You ask me to speak for Dr. Lafer and for the studies he cites when I clearly am not him. You want to have me explain to you the reasons behind his methodology and that is simply not available to me. That is not a weakness or a flaw - it is just the way it is.
    Ok, so you don't want to defend his research, because you do not know his methodology, but you expect me to take every word he says as the truth.

    If you want to use his research as an argument, then you need to be able to defend it. Don't mention research you are unable to defend.

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