View Poll Results: Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

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  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    44 60.27%
  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    14 19.18%
  • It depends on November.

    15 20.55%
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Thread: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

  1. #91
    Sage

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so again why would public sector employees need a union?
    Boo already answered it. They want/need a collective power to negotiate.

    Here's a specific example: The School Board decides that it will evaluate teachers based solely on the standardized test scores of students. The entire world knows that test scores are impacted by many things outside of a teacher's control. Therefore, it's not only unfair, but also nonsensical and damaging to the public to evaluate teachers in such a manner since quality teachers will likely be fired because students did poorly despite being taught well.

    In response to this, teachers tell their union to negotiate with the Board to develop a teacher evaluation that takes into account all the factors outside of teacher control that go into a student's performance.

    Simple.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 06-08-12 at 11:41 PM.

  2. #92
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Boo already answered it. They want/need a collective power to negotiate.

    Here's a specific example: The School Board decides that it will evaluate teachers based solely on the standardized test scores of students. The entire world knows that test scores are impacted by many things outside of a teacher's control. Therefore, it's not only unfair, but also nonsensical and damaging to the public to evaluate teachers in such a manner since quality teachers will likely be fired because students did poorly despite being taught well.

    In response to this, teachers tell their union to negotiate with the Board to develop a teacher evaluation that takes into account all the factors outside of teacher control that go into a student's performance.

    Simple.
    Nonsense. Everybody realizes that student performance is not 100% controlled by the actions of the teacher. But everybody also realizes that some classes (with different teachers) in the SAME school show marked differences, year after year. Rather than rate teachers against a fixed number, simply rate them among each other (based on THEIR students' test scores). If you have 20 teachers in a school then rank them from 1 to 20, and assign pay increases based on which 1/4 they fall in. The top 25% get a raise, the middle 50% do not and the bottom 25% take a cut at 1/2 the raise percentage of the top 25%. After a few years the cream floats to the top, the worst (hopefully) seek another job, and the rest are not over paid near as much as the 'longevity only" nonsense that now passes as "fair". Simple.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-08-12 at 11:53 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #93
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Lately we have seen Republican and Democrat (though, oddly, only Republicans make news with it) Governors work to save their states from fiscal ruin by curtailing the Public Unions, either in finances or in power. Have the last two years marked the beginning of the end for the Public Sector Union, and will they go the way of the Private Sector Union?
    Hi, CP. I didn't vote because nothing quite fit my thoughts.

    I think the Walker victory sent a strong message to public sector unions that they're going to have to adjust their sights and become more willing to compromise. Although one wouldn't know that based on the Chicago teachers' union. They've just held a strike vote for the fall -- results not announced yet. They are asking for a 30% pay increase over the next two years. What??

    I also think it's important that we don't over-estimate the power of Walker's victory. The unions have proven that, "We will hunt you down if you try to take away our power." That message was delivered loud and clear. Politicians are likely to give pause when considering the Wisconsin events. JMVHO.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #94
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Nonsense. Everybody realizes that student performance is not 100% controlled by the actions of the teacher. But everybody also realizes that some classes (with different teachers) in the SAME school show marked differences, year after year. Rather than rate teachers against a fixed number, simply rate them among each other (based on THEIR students' test scores). If you have 20 teachers in a school then rank them from 1 to 20, and assign pay increases based on which 1/4 they fall in. The top 25% get a raise, the middle 50% do not and the bottom 25% take a cut at 1/2 the raise percentage of the top 25%. After a few years the cream floats to the top, the worst (hopefully) seek another job, and the rest are not over paid near as much as the 'longevity only" nonsense that now passes as "fair". Simple.
    Good job. You just offered one of many potential suggestions that the Teacher's Union would give to the School Board during negotiations.

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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Good job. You just offered one of many potential suggestions that the Teacher's Union would give to the School Board during negotiations.
    But you still have the tail wagging the dog. It is the school board ALONE that should decide, not the teacher's or their union. At a golf course, for example, it is not the maintanence staff that sets the work rules, but the owner/management. The workers may prefer to cut the greens, trim the trees or rake the bunkers one way, and the owner/manager another. It is neither negotiated nor put to a vote, it is SIMPLE, if you work for me you work my way. Your performance review is based on the owner/manager's evaluation of your work according to THEIR standards. Simple.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-09-12 at 12:08 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #96
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Boo already answered it. They want/need a collective power to negotiate.

    Here's a specific example: The School Board decides that it will evaluate teachers based solely on the standardized test scores of students. The entire world knows that test scores are impacted by many things outside of a teacher's control. Therefore, it's not only unfair, but also nonsensical and damaging to the public to evaluate teachers in such a manner since quality teachers will likely be fired because students did poorly despite being taught well.

    In response to this, teachers tell their union to negotiate with the Board to develop a teacher evaluation that takes into account all the factors outside of teacher control that go into a student's performance.

    Simple.

    complete crap-the government is required to treat all similarly situated employees equally.

  7. #97
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Hi, CP. I didn't vote because nothing quite fit my thoughts.

    I think the Walker victory sent a strong message to public sector unions that they're going to have to adjust their sights and become more willing to compromise. Although one wouldn't know that based on the Chicago teachers' union. They've just held a strike vote for the fall -- results not announced yet. They are asking for a 30% pay increase over the next two years. What??

    I also think it's important that we don't over-estimate the power of Walker's victory. The unions have proven that, "We will hunt you down if you try to take away our power." That message was delivered loud and clear. Politicians are likely to give pause when considering the Wisconsin events. JMVHO.
    I'm not that familiar with Chicago, but if I remember correctly, they were promised a rasie they didn't get. They are being asked to do more without much pay. Seems to me there is an issue there. Yes, if they are asking for 30%, that's a bit much. I wouldn't give it to them. But we should look at the entire picture.

    I was involved in our negotiations here (we don't have a union). We go to administration, say here is what we would like, and they say yes or no. Seldom effective. But the administration these last few years ahve been cutting staff, firing folks who contributed (some question the reasons some were fired), cutitng benefits, and increasing work load. The preisdent took a huge bonus during this time. Workers, as may well surprise, take a dim view of that.

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  8. #98
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    I don't get why people can't see that there'sa conflict of interest when it comes to public unions. The ultimate employer "the tax payers" are not the ones at the bargaining table. If people had to vote on salaries/benefits I'll bet that the outcomes would be very different. As it is the unions can finance people who they want to negotiate with.
    "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

  9. #99
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    you are free to work anywhere you wish....if you don't like the terms of that employment, no one is forcing you to take a job...move on to the next one.
    So, by that same argument, you also oppose minimum wage laws, yes?
    Statist silliness of the day:
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    All this talk about "dominion over a third person" is libertarianistic goobledy-gook. "dominion over a third person" means that the 3rd person is "controlled", and our govt does not control people.

  10. #100
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    Re: Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not that familiar with Chicago, but if I remember correctly, they were promised a rasie they didn't get. They are being asked to do more without much pay. Seems to me there is an issue there. Yes, if they are asking for 30%, that's a bit much. I wouldn't give it to them. But we should look at the entire picture.
    I'm from Chicago and I can fill in the blanks of MaggieD's post. The Chicago Teacher's Union is asking for a 29% raise. They want 20% to match the 20% increase in the length of the school day that Emmanuel has proposed. They want the 4% which they argue they should have received last year and they want a 5% increase in the second year of the contract.

    Here's the link to the press release.

    It's really not scandalous at all. It's also worth noting that CTU is not having a strike vote, it's having a strike authorization vote so that it can be prepared for a strike if it comes to that. It's funny how people can make things sound outrageous when they take them out of context.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 06-09-12 at 12:34 AM.

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