View Poll Results: On a scale of one to ten, how much does it matter?

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  • 1 (least important)

    21 32.31%
  • 2

    3 4.62%
  • 3

    3 4.62%
  • 4

    2 3.08%
  • 5

    3 4.62%
  • 6

    3 4.62%
  • 7

    7 10.77%
  • 8

    10 15.38%
  • 9

    3 4.62%
  • 10 (most important)

    10 15.38%
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Thread: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

  1. #111
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Big assumptions but not legal facts. Explain what in the 15th (banning racial voting restrictions) or 19th (banning gender voting restrictions) amendments WAS NOT covered by the 14th amendment WHEN USING YOUR "interpretation" of the equal protection clause.
    Maybe we didn't need it but people believed we did so they ensured that it was quite clear that both black men and then women were viewed as equal to men and not property or lesser citizens. Just because something is done, doesn't mean it was necessary.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #112
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are still trying to equate choice of marriage partner based on race with race. That is simply not the same thing. Unless you equate choice of marriage partner based on sex with sex. That is the issue.

    Having the choice of who a person is allowed to marry who would otherwise be allowed to marry someone in a similar position if not for their race or their sex. Legal marriage is a contract.

    The government recognizes the contract for many reasons. One is raising children together. Another is stable relationships are better for society. And yet another is just simply a way to better handle issues when people decide to split up. All of these can apply to one or another same sex couple. And all three do not apply to every opposite sex couple.
    Please repost in plain english, concentrate on the "equating race with race, and sex with sex" which is totally baffling to me. "Gender preference" is NOT the same as "gender (sex?)" or "race", as both were granted separate and EXPLICIT protection (by constitutional amendment).

    "Gender preference" or "orientation" or any other GLBT terminology of the day, is NOT mentioned in the constitution (or ANY amendment) as a federal power or as an individual right, therefore, per the 10th amendment, it is "up to the several states" to decide the issue.

    ALL states have passed their own marriage law(s). Some states are in favor of SSM, and have changed their marriage laws to include/allow SSM, but many are not, leaving their marriage laws unchanged, but ALL are still constitutional, as NO mention of either marriage or GLBT rights is made in the constitution.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-13-12 at 05:06 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #113
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Please repost in plain english, concentrate on the "equating race with race, and sex with sex" which is totally baffling to me. Gender prference is NOT the same as gender (sex?) or race, as both are granted EXPLICIT protection by constitutional amendment(s), and "gender preference" or "orientation" or any other GLBT terminology of the day, is NOT mentioned in thye constitution as federal power or as an individual right, therefore per the 10th amendment it is "up to the several states" to decide, which ALL of them have. Some in favor of changing their marriage laws to include/allow SSM, many leaving them as is, but ALL are constitutional as NO mention of either marriage or GLBT rights are mentioned in the constitution, it is and shall remain a state gov't power.
    Do you not understand that interracial marriage was about racial preference, as same sex marriage is about sex/gender preference, when it comes to choosing a mate/spouse?

    Racial rights, specifically, are not mentioned in the Constitution, as far as equal protection goes. They are a part of the whole in the equal protection clause, which also includes sexuality and sex/gender and religion and blood relationship status and many other things that could be compared to each other.

    If the laws said "only heterosexuals can legally get married", there would be little debate as to whether this violated the EPC because it would be obvious that it did.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #114
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Lots of blather there Z, but very incoherent. I NEVER said or implied that SSM was unconstitutional. Some states have allowed SSM (by changing their state marriage law) yet most do not allow SSM (per existing state marriage law), which is ALL constitutional. Perhaps, instead of using "impressive" phrasing and big words, you could concentrate on simply making some sense.
    WOW...defensive much? Wasn't trying to use "impressive prhasing and big words". Wasn't even necessarily trying to argue with what you were saying. Simply was launching off of your comments about the 14th amendment and SSM as a new "right" and your seeming focus about considering it under the 14th as a "Concept".

    I don't think it needs to be considered as a "Concept". I actually think some of the issues you mentioned regarding that to be legitimate possible issues. I was simply stating my own take in terms of SSM and the 14th amendment...which is that it's not an issue concerning sexuality but one concerning gender discrimination.

    Specifically I was speaking most toward this line:

    "As to the applicability of the 14th amendment ALONE allowing SSM as a new "right", I would say no. I base this on no dislike for SSM, only that race and gender are fixed, easily defined things, whereas "sexual preference" is well, a "concept", that is not related directly to either race or gender. "

    Here you're suggesting, it seems, that the 14th amendment alone shouldn't allow for SSm as a new "right" based on you feeling that "sexual preference" is a "concept" and as such wouldn't fall under it as much as gender and race. I think there's legitimacy to your view point there. However, I was pointing out that one could argue for the applicability of the 14th amendment ALONE allowing SSM as a new "right" (using your own "impressive big phrasing and words" there) by arguing it not based on "sexual preference" but on gender discrimination. A thing that, you yourself states, is a more "easily defined" and "fixed" thing.

    Specifically...marriage laws in this country set up a situation where a Man can do something a woman can't do, and vise versa. That is, a man is allowed to marry a woman...a woman is not. A woman is allowed to marry a man, a man is not.

  5. #115
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    It is ridiculously unimportant.

    All gay marriages should be legal - it is no one's business but theirs who they marry.

  6. #116
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Maybe we didn't need it but people believed we did so they ensured that it was quite clear that both black men and then women were viewed as equal to men and not property or lesser citizens. Just because something is done, doesn't mean it was necessary.
    LOL. What do you think the term "LEGAL PRECEDENT" means? I think it means that, if it was done (or decided) before then it stands of its own weight, not having to be "redecided" in all such future cases, simply referenced in a decision "as law". So using THAT logic constitutional action for "GLBT rights" needs a constitutional amendment, just as race and gender did. We shall see what the SCOTUS thinks. Far too many are willing to substitute the "opinions" of 5/4 of our nine robed umpires of the day, as equivalent to the actual words of the constitution (or an amendment), a VERY dangerous thing, IMHO.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #117
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Big assumptions but not legal facts. Explain what in the 15th (banning racial voting restrictions) or 19th (banning gender voting restrictions) amendments WAS NOT covered by the 14th amendment WHEN USING YOUR "interpretation" of the equal protection clause.
    One of the issues of the fact that the SCOTUS essentially invested itself with the power of Judicial Review is the fact tht what is or isn't covered under the 14th is more up to the thoughts of 9 Justices rather than some universal, consistent, unquestionable baseline. As such, a constitutional amendment provides an avenue to get something passed that may actually already, theoritically, be allowed by the constitution but because the current make up of the court doesn't judge it so then for practical purposes it isn't.

    A hypothetical to explain my point. Lets say, for some strange and odd reason, the SCOTUS just remains relatively silent on cases regarding automatic weapons bans. Not directly saying the laws are unconstitutional under the 2nd amendment, but neither overturning them. An amendment could be passed saying "People can own automatic weapons". Looking back...people could say that its inclusion in the constitution as an amendment proves the 2nd amendment doesn't cover it, but inreality it came about because the SCOTUS refused to actually take a stance either way about the 2nd amendment covering it.

    Additionally, in terms of the 15th and 19th...because the right to vote I believe is a constitutional issue, not simply a privledge granted by legislatively passed federal law, there could be issues with the 14th applying to it. Essentially it brings the question of whether or not the constitution has the power to invalidate other constitutional provisions without a direct statement of doing so (IE if the constitution says "white men can vote" and then passes an amendment saying "laws much be applied equally" [really really paraphrasing here] does that amendment have the power, in its broad statement, of over riding the other part of the constitution or does it apply to lower law and an amendment specifically addressing the constitutional matter is needed to change it). It's at least a slightly more clouded issue.

  8. #118
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    It is ridiculously unimportant.

    All gay marriages should be legal - it is no one's business but theirs who they marry.
    Is that your opinion of polygamy as well? If not then WHY not?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    It is ridiculously unimportant.

    All gay marriages should be legal - it is no one's business but theirs who they marry.
    Hate this argument.

    No, who someone marries in a private ceremony is no ones business but those being married and those who they choose to involve in that business.

    However...

    When talking about the PUBLIC notion of Marriage which involves PUBLIC benefits from the government, on behalf of the tax payers and voters, then it does at least mildly become the business of every other citizen in the country.

  10. #120
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    Re: How important do you consider the issue of gay marriage?

    When there is injustice to one group in America...there is injustice to all.

    America will never achieve its true greatness until it fulfills its underlying promise of freedom and justice for ALL.

    So I think its very important.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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