View Poll Results: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share?

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  • Yes

    82 45.30%
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Thread: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

  1. #81
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    The argument that inheritance and capital gains shouldn't be taxed as income because they already have been once doesn't really fly. Earned income has been taxed as income before too, just a little more indirectly. For example, I earn money at work, and pay taxes on that income. Then later I go buy some groceries, and with some of the money I spent on groceries, the grocery store pays their employees, who also have to pay taxes on that money. Would you argue that the people working at the grocery store shouldn't have to pay income taxes on their wages because that money has already been taxed as income once?
    You miss some key distinctions. What you spend is gone (consumed), yes it may be recirculated, but you have neither interest in, nor control over, how. What you invest is still yours (hard earned income), but you have placed it at risk, to be used by others with a CHANCE that you will benefit, yet your have no such guarantee it will benefit you, like eating that hot dog or driving that car, that you could have done instead. Investment helps us ALL, not just the guy taking the risk, as it grows the economy, creates jobs and thus should be encouraged, over simple personal consumption. Offering a reward for successful private investment, by taxing that "income" at a lower rate, is a common good, especially considering that, if money is lost, then you get no tax break for that "bad" investment.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-03-12 at 02:30 PM.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #82
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Taxes were paid on all income by previous owners. If I earn $1,000 at my job, I pay taxes on it, then I use it to hire you to build me a widget, you still have to pay taxes on it. It isn't like money is somehow made immune to taxation in later transactions. When it changes hands, you need to pay taxes on it.



    That doesn't really add up either. You don't pay taxes on the part you invested, just the new income.



    Why half? Seems to me that, if anything, we ought to tax investment income more highly than wages. Wages you have to actually work to get, where investment income you don't. Seems to me that if we were to tax one more, it would be the one you don't have to do anything to get... I'm fine with taxing them the same, but I don't see any reason to tax investment income less..
    You miss some key distinctions. What you spend is gone (consumed), yes it may be recirculated, but you have neither interest in, nor control over, how. What you invest is still yours (hard earned income), but you have placed it at risk, to be used by others with a CHANCE that you will benefit, yet your have no such guarantee it will benefit you, like eating that hot dog or driving that car, that you could have done instead. Investment helps us ALL, not just the guy taking the risk, as it grows the economy, creates jobs and thus should be encouraged, over simple personal consumption. Offering a reward for successful private investment, by taxing that "income" at a lower rate, is a common good, especially considering that, if money is lost (or its value reduced by inflation), then you get no tax break for that "bad" investment.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-03-12 at 02:32 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    But why is that distinction significant in terms of taxation? Ownership is changing hands -- it's a transfer of title, or to title, in the case of inheritance and capital gains.
    The transactions that generate taxes are voluntary contracts, which are an intentional creation of a legal obligation on the part of both parties involved. Whether it's an employment contract, a sales contract or an investment, the common denominator is that adults are legally entering into contract with one another and it is this activity that is taxable.

    See: Section 61, Internal Revenue Code

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by NotEliTanenbaum View Post
    I like Robert Frank's idea for a progressive tax on consumption. I think with that you could increase savings and investment while still keeping the system progressive.
    That is precisely why capital gains, dividend and interst income are now taxed at a different (lower) rate, to encourage private investment.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-03-12 at 02:38 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Because income is something you earn by trading one thing for another (e.g. through work or investments).
    Er, you contended that investment income wasn't income. Now you seem to be saying that it is like wages. That would be a counter to your position that it wasn't income, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Then why not tax the **** out of it, say 90%? After all, if you're investing it, you ought not really "need" it in any immediate sense, so have government take it. Taxing CGs is essentially without consequence, according to your analysis.
    No, I didn't say it was without consequence. I said that creating an incentive to invest internationally instead of domestically isn't an actual issue.

    Capital gains taxes do have consequences. If you tax them way too much, you soak up too much of the pool of investment capital and then businesses that need investment to grow can't grow. You certainly need to balance that out. On one hand, you have the value of more investment capital, on the other you have lower deficits. When you're really starved for investment capital, you can even potentially lower deficits by cutting capital gains taxes. But, we're way below that point now. We have much more investment capital than we currently need and recent capital gains rate cuts have all led to a reduction in revenues.

    Of course, all taxes have consequences. If we tax capital gains lower and need to tax wages at a higher rate, that means less consumer spending. Right now, it is consumer spending we need more badly than investment capital.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  6. #86
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Those are all transactions that trigger a tax. Exchanging something for another, in the form of a contract. Trade. Labor for money, and money for goods and services. Gifts and inheritance are not examples of this.
    So you're saying that money you get for nothing should be taxed less than money you earn? Why? Should lottery winnings and gambling winnings and whatnot be taxed at a lower rate too? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You miss some key distinctions. What you spend is gone (consumed), yes it may be recirculated, but you have neither interest in, nor control over, how. What you invest is still yours (hard earned income), but you have placed it at risk, to be used by others with a CHANCE that you will benefit, yet your have no such guarantee it will benefit you, like eating that hot dog or driving that car, that you could have done instead. Investment helps us ALL, not just the guy taking the risk, as it grows the economy, creates jobs and thus should be encouraged, over simple personal consumption. Offering a reward for successful private investment, by taxing that "income" at a lower rate, is a common good, especially considering that, if money is lost (or its value reduced by inflation), then you get no tax break for that "bad" investment.
    You do get a tax break for losses. In fact, not only can losses cancel out any wins for a given year, but if you're crafty about when you sell the stock that took the loss, you can potentially cancel out any wins for many years.

    But, regardless, with investments you have to accept risk, but with wages you have to work for it. Personally, I think working 50 hours a week is a much bigger sacrifice than accepting some risk. Especially given that it isn't exactly a 50/50 bet. On average, investors win. And, if they lose bad, those losses just get put back on society as a whole due to limited liability. I see the risk argument as, at most, offsetting the "you don't have to work for it" argument.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    The top couple percent are the only group that pay a higher share of the income tax burden than their share of the income

    so they Pay far more than their fair share


    based on what they get from the government--they pay far more than their fair share

    so on objective standards the rich are extremely overtaxed''

  8. #88
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, of course not. Almost everybody pays between 20% and 30% of their income towards taxes overall. The only exceptions are people living in poverty, who pay 16%, and the super rich, who pay 15%. Obviously it is not fair for super rich people to get lower taxes than working people. All it is is corruption. They have enough money to buy politicians and they use that power to get tax perks for themselves.

    psychobabble. very few people are in that group you whine about and that group still pays a far higher effective income tax rate than the vast majority of americans. MORE IMPORTANTLY, they pay MILLIONS in actual tax dollars meaning they are paying far more than 60+ million people COMBINED


    there is much more to fairness than actual percentages. The rich don't get any more value back than those paying no taxes so on that ground anyone paying more than the average federal tax bill is paying more than their fair share


    Your ranting about the rich really is applicable to less then a few thousand people-not the several million that your master Obama calls rich

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The top couple percent are the only group that pay a higher share of the income tax burden than their share of the income'
    Oh man! You forgot AGAIN td!?! You said "income tax burden" when you meant "federal income tax burden excluding FICA" didn't you! So forgetful!

    .... or just dishonest.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    "Fair" is the wrong question. Progressive taxation is necessary and appropriate, and it should have more bracket, higher top rates and fewer deductions. I'm not gonna weep for people paying high marginal rates under the current tax code.

    Oh, and tax capital gains as standard income.
    this country prospered and grew without a progressive tax so saying it is necessary and appropriate is not subject to proof since it is an opinion. I don't think a progressive tax is appropriate nor necessary.

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