View Poll Results: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share?

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  • Yes

    82 45.30%
  • No

    99 54.70%
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Thread: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

  1. #41
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Plissken View Post
    Article 1
    Section 8

    "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

    How would you interpret the bold part?

    Does that mean everyone should pay 1,000.00 per year per person? (amount is example only, no intent of actual amount implied)

    Does that mean everyone pays 10% per year per person? (amount is example only, no intent of actual amount implied)

    Everyone for the most part has the ability to use the same Services our Federal Government provides, ie National Security, Parks, Roads, etc. so why do we have discrimination against various Human Beings? Looks to me as the Founding Fathers intended for everyone to be treated Equally and Fairly without Discrimination

    Thoughts?
    That was ALL changed by the FIT system allowed via the 16th amendment, unfortunately. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #42
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    Then let's try again. Are you indicating that your think a $40K /year factory worker and a $400 million/year hedge fund manager should pay the same amount of federal taxes?
    The same AMOUNT no, the same RATE yes. Why is it "fair" that SS taxes are based on only GROSS wage income, using the same rate, and have a cap ($116K?) after which NONE are due? Taxation should not be about "social engineering" or "social justice" but simply to raise revenue needed to support a reasonable amount of gov't spending.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #43
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Fairness is when everyone pays the same amount, not the same %, the same amount.
    That is both INSANE and impossible, but other than that, a great idea. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #44
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Plissken View Post
    Article 1
    Section 8

    "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

    How would you interpret the bold part?

    Does that mean everyone should pay 1,000.00 per year per person? (amount is example only, no intent of actual amount implied)

    Does that mean everyone pays 10% per year per person? (amount is example only, no intent of actual amount implied)
    People have tried to make the argument you are making in court- that "uniform" means "flat". But that isn't really what it says. What it say is that the federal taxes need to be the same in Delaware as they are in Georgia, which of course they are. We tax every person according to the same tax brackets for wages, the same rules for capital gains, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Plissken View Post
    Everyone for the most part has the ability to use the same Services our Federal Government provides, ie National Security, Parks, Roads, etc. so why do we have discrimination against various Human Beings? Looks to me as the Founding Fathers intended for everyone to be treated Equally and Fairly without Discrimination
    The amount of benefit somebody draws from society is proportionate to their income. If somebody owns a company with 100 employees, for example, they are drawing benefit from 101 educations, where the employee is only drawing benefit from one. The person with $1 million in investments benefits 1,000 times as much as the person with $1,000 in investments from most bailouts. National security and law enforcement both provide more value the more you have to protect. The richer somebody is, the more stock they own, the more wear and tear they are putting on the roads through those companies, the more pollution they are generating, the more regulatory costs they are creating, etc.

    But those are just the benefits they draw directly from the government. All the money they have is drawn from society as a whole obviously. They aren't printing it in their basements on animal skins from animals they killed themselves, they are getting it from transactions with other people. That's the source of their money- society. So, it makes sense that they would pay more to keep that society strong, right?
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  5. #45
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    Actually, no, our tax code is not progressive by OECD standards...

    How do US taxes compare internationally?

    U.S. taxes are low relative to those in other developed countries. In 2008 U.S. taxes at all levels of government claimed 26 percent of GDP, compared with an average of 35 percent of GDP for the 33 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).
    I didn't say that our taxes are HIGH, I said that our tax code is extremely PROGRESSIVE by OECD standards.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  6. #46
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A flat tax is regressive. That is the opposite direction needed.

    "Definition of 'Regressive Tax'
    A tax that takes a larger percentage from low-income people than from high-income people. A regressive tax is generally a tax that is applied uniformly. This means that it hits lower-income individuals harder.

    Investopedia explains 'Regressive Tax'
    Some examples include gas tax and cigarette tax. For example, if a person has $10 of income and must pay $1 of tax on a package of cigarettes, this represents 10% of the person's income. However, if the person has $20 of income, this $1 tax only represents 5% of that person's income.

    Sales taxes that apply to essentials are generally considered to be regressive as well because expenses for food, clothing and shelter tend to make up a higher percentage of a lower income consumer's overall budget. In this case, even though the tax may be uniform (such as 7% sales tax), lower income consumers are more affected by it because they are less able to afford it."


    Read more: Regressive Tax Definition | Investopedia
    That includes a HUGE logical falacy. That both the rich and the poor will eat the same type and amount of food, or buy the same type and amount of other items. The sales tax on a Yugo is much less than the sales tax on a Rolls Royce. I understand your basic premise, that the poor must CONSUME more of their income than the rich must, but by simply exemtping food (and used goods) from sales taxation that "regressive" curve changes very dramatically.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #47
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I didn't say that our taxes are HIGH, I said that our tax code is extremely PROGRESSIVE by OECD standards.
    Yes, the top rates are higher, but you're overlooking the fact that the top 10% of America's earners are taking home 50% of America's income. This is much more lopsided than other OECD countries.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell, 1872 - 1970)

    "A wise man will change his mind. A fool never will." (My Grandma)

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That includes a HUGE logical falacy. That both the rich and the poor will eat the same type and amount of food, or buy the same type and amount of other items. The sales tax on a Yugo is much less than the sales tax on a Rolls Royce. I understand your basic premise, that the poor must CONSUME more of their income than the rich must, but by simply exemtping food (and used goods) from sales taxation that "regressive" curve changes very dramatically.
    That's not a logical fallacy, that is what regressive means- takes a smaller share of your income the richer you are. Consumption based taxes are virtually always regressive. When somebody talks about "regressive taxes", that is what they are referring to. If regressive taxes didn't include consumption taxes, they wouldn't really refer to anything...
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    What is a "fair share"?
    "Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened."

  10. #50
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's not a logical fallacy, that is what regressive means- takes a smaller share of your income the richer you are. Consumption based taxes are virtually always regressive. When somebody talks about "regressive taxes", that is what they are referring to. If regressive taxes didn't include consumption taxes, they wouldn't really refer to anything...
    That simply depends on what YOU call "fair". "From each according to their ability (to pay taxes), to each according to their need (for gov't help)" may sound quite fair to YOU, but that does not make it so. The current BASIS for FIT is an AGI to make basic living costs exempt and tax the balance of income using progressively higher rates, which is also seen as "fair" in the eyes of many. Many state sales tax systems, including ours in Texas, exempt food completely, making them much less "regressive".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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