View Poll Results: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share?

Voters
181. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    82 45.30%
  • No

    99 54.70%
Page 40 of 126 FirstFirst ... 3038394041425090 ... LastLast
Results 391 to 400 of 1260

Thread: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

  1. #391
    Educator
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    ATL
    Last Seen
    07-07-12 @ 09:00 PM
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    1,172

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    I responded by saying " no".....the wealthy pay way too much. Only a class envious tool or commie SOB would disagree with that fact.
    I love the smell of burning moonbat in the morning.

  2. #392
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,598

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    OK let's see here, I assume that we are talking about the "individual" tax returns of the richest 400 people in the U.S. and comparing that to the average of millions of people that fall into the mythical "median" spectrum. Lets make two assumptions: 1) the median income is based on wages and 2) the 400 rich people get the vast majority of their income from non-wage sources. One big factor, right off the bat, is SS/Medicare is a 6.4% tax bump in the rate of the median income, and has little if any affect on the rich. The next factor is that the rich are not rich because they are stupid, they play the tax law game using the best available tax lawyers, tax accountants and, yes, tax law lobbyists to "tweek" both their investments and the tax code itself to maximize their gain and minimize their taxation. One very simple and legal way to do this is by switching from stock dividends (fully taxable) to growth stocks (capital gain tax rate) or gov't bonds (non-taxable). I am not sure what federal taxes are included but assume FIT, FICA and excise taxes are. The percentage of fuel, alcohol, tobacco and etc. excise taxes (if included) would also fall much heavier upon the median income folks than the rich, since personal consumption of these items is about the same amount even for the uber-rich. What would also be an interesting graph bar addition is the percentages paid by these two groups of the total of all federal taxes.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-06-12 at 05:04 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #393
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you believe horse racing is random chance you'll have to prove it. Many people say otherwise. It's a race, a competition - it's not throwing dice.

    Horses make money from running races. The track makes money from holding the races. It's all business and the gamblers contribute to it.
    The horse is an animal, even when trained well, it can still decide not to give it's all.
    It can break a bone or become injured, making the history of winnings irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If most people can "win" with investing then where's this risk you talk about?
    Because sometimes, even when a company adds value, consumers don't want the product, causing the investors to lose money.
    The company may be formed at the wrong time and suffer from an economic down turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You haven't shown me compelling evidence to the contrary. I'm willing to be convinced - do your best.
    That's only because you choose not to see it.
    I've given enough information to you, to show that they aren't the same thing.
    You're ignoring it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's only true if it's FDIC insured - not all banks are.
    No, just the vast majority of them are.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #394
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK let's see here, I assume that we are talking about the "individual" tax returns of the richest 400 people in the U.S. and comparing that to the average of millions of people that fall into the mythical "median" spectrum. Lets make two assumptions: 1) the median income is based on wages and 2) the 400 rich people get the vast majority of their income from non-wage sources. One big factor, right off the bat, is SS/Medicare is a 6.4% tax bump in the rate of the median income, and has little if any affect on the rich. The next factor is that the rich are not rich because they are stupid, they play the tax law game using the best available tax lawyers, tax accountants and, yes, tax law lobbyists to "tweek" both their investments and the tax code itself to maximize their gain and minimize their taxation. One very simple and legal way to do this is by switching from stock dividends (fully taxable) to growth stocks (capital gain tax rate) or gov't bonds (non-taxable). I am not sure what federal taxes are included but assume FIT, FICA and excise taxes are. The percentage of fuel, alcohol, tobacco and etc. excise taxes (if included) would also fall much heavier upon the median income folks than the rich, since personal consumption of these items is about the same amount even for the uber-rich. What would also be an interesting graph bar addition is the percentages paid by these two groups of the total of all federal taxes.
    The full document the chart came from. I haven't read even close to all of it but I do not believe FICA is included.

    http://www.ips-dc.org/files/1675/Shi...onsibility.pdf
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  5. #395
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK let's see here, I assume that we are talking about the "individual" tax returns of the richest 400 people in the U.S. and comparing that to the average of millions of people that fall into the mythical "median" spectrum. Lets make two assumptions: 1) the median income is based on wages and 2) the 400 rich people get the vast majority of their income from non-wage sources. One big factor, right off the bat, is SS/Medicare is a 6.4% tax bump in the rate of the median income, and has little if any affect on the rich. The next factor is that the rich are not rich because they are stupid, they play the tax law game using the best available tax lawyers, tax accountants and, yes, tax law lobbyists to "tweek" both their investments and the tax code itself to maximize their gain and minimize their taxation. One very simple and legal way to do this is by switching from stock dividends (fully taxable) to growth stocks (capital gain tax rate) or gov't bonds (non-taxable). I am not sure what federal taxes are included but assume FIT, FICA and excise taxes are. The percentage of fuel, alcohol, tobacco and etc. excise taxes (if included) would also fall much heavier upon the median income folks than the rich, since personal consumption of these items is about the same amount even for the uber-rich. What would also be an interesting graph bar addition is the percentages paid by these two groups of the total of all federal taxes.
    You are correct that poor people have ****ty lobbyist and that the far right thinks unearned income should be taxed at a lower rate than earned income.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #396
    Sometimes wrong

    ttwtt78640's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Uhland, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    34,598

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The full document the chart came from. I haven't read even close to all of it but I do not believe FICA is included.

    http://www.ips-dc.org/files/1675/Shi...onsibility.pdf
    It appears that it does not, but I could not say that for sure either, as the article flip-flops between "total federal tax burden" and "overall effective FIT rates" in the span of a mere sentence or two. The bottom line is this. If you double (or more) the capital gains federal tax rate then you effectively cut the investment yield (dividends rate) of blue chip stocks to less than that of many tax free bond investments, which will likely have two very bad "unintended" consequences: 1) less activity (and value) for these more price static and higher yield stocks and 2) less overall tax revenue as money leaves the blue chip stock market and switches to bonds (tax free interest yield), precious metals and "growth stocks", that can be held (tax free) until the law gets changed back to basically what it is now. ;-)
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-06-12 at 05:25 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #397
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The horse is an animal, even when trained well, it can still decide not to give it's all.
    It can break a bone or become injured, making the history of winnings irrelevant.
    And this somehow makes it more/less random than a company that might change CEOs, or change suppliers, or be affected by any number of other uncontrollable variables in the market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Because sometimes, even when a company adds value, consumers don't want the product, causing the investors to lose money.
    The company may be formed at the wrong time and suffer from an economic down turn.
    So investing is random, too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That's only because you choose not to see it.
    I've given enough information to you, to show that they aren't the same thing.
    You're ignoring it.
    I'm not ignoring anything. "Investing" money is a gamble, it's a bet. The investor (gambler) is betting that the company (horse) he's putting his money behind (betting on) will make money for him (win).

    The only difference you've shown so far is the winnings from gambling aren't deferred, which basically means they're short-term gains instead of long-term. I admitted that earlier, did you miss it? (And, yes, I understand the difference in the tax rates for short and long-term gains.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No, just the vast majority of them are.
    But there's no special deal for those that aren't FDIC insured, are there? The IRS gives no special rate for investing in CD's at a non-FDIC bank or other uninsured financial institution, right?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #398
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It appears that it does not, but I could not say that for sure either, as the article flip-flops between "total federal tax burden" and "overall effective FIT rates" in the span of a mere sentence or two. The bottom line is this. If you double (or more) the capital gains federal tax rate then you effectively cut the investment yield (dividends rate) of blue chip stocks to less than that of many tax free bond investments, which will likely have two very bad "unintended" consequences: 1) less activity (and value) for these more price static and higher yield stocks and 2) less overall tax revenue as money leaves the blue chip stock market and switches to bonds (tax free interest yield), precious metals and "growth stocks", that can be held (tax free) until the law gets changed back to basically what it is now. ;-)
    There is no evidence that our higher capital gains tax rates under Reagan and Clinton hurt our economy. And there is no evidence that the lowered capital gains tax rates have created more jobs in the US.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #399
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It appears that it does not, but I could not say that for sure either, as the article flip-flops between "total federal tax burden" and "overall effective FIT rates" in the span of a mere sentence or two. The bottom line is this. If you double (or more) the capital gains federal tax rate then you effectively cut the investment yield (dividends rate) of blue chip stocks to less than that of many tax free bond investments, which will likely have two very bad "unintended" consequences: 1) less activity (and value) for these more price static and higher yield stocks and 2) less overall tax revenue as money leaves the blue chip stock market and switches to bonds (tax free interest yield), precious metals and "growth stocks", that can be held (tax free) until the law gets changed back to basically what it is now. ;-)
    Well, at least we're finally getting past (I hope!!) the BS side of the story and focusing on what affect capital gains taxes actually have - and why they're changed from time to time.

    Right now it might be a good thing to have people investing in bonds, especially state and municipal bonds to get some capital improvements projects (that's the construction industry) moving again. It also wouldn't hurt for small and medium businesses to get a boost as well. So the bonds are looking like maybe a good route for the economy. Not sure how commodities would fair but I think most are kind of high right now, so I don't see anyone jumping whole-hog into that.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #400
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    And this somehow makes it more/less random than a company that might change CEOs, or change suppliers, or be affected by any number of other uncontrollable variables in the market?
    And those changes, while unpredictable are still different than gambling.
    "Investing" in a number, horse, dog, lottery ticket, is different from investing in an ownership interest in a business.

    Your "investments" in those gambling activities, do not produce value added, products or services.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    So investing is random, too?
    Some aspects of investing are random.
    That doesn't mean it's gambling.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything. "Investing" money is a gamble, it's a bet. The investor (gambler) is betting that the company (horse) he's putting his money behind (betting on) will make money for him (win).

    The only difference you've shown so far is the winnings from gambling aren't deferred, which basically means they're short-term gains instead of long-term. I admitted that earlier, did you miss it? (And, yes, I understand the difference in the tax rates for short and long-term gains.)
    What does the horse produce?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    But there's no special deal for those that aren't FDIC insured, are there? The IRS gives no special rate for investing in CD's at a non-FDIC bank or other uninsured financial institution, right?
    There aren't, but that's likely because the number of uninsured banks is hardly present.
    I'm sure it's based on the idea that the government doesn't want uninsured banks and thus, they do not encourage this economic activity.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

Page 40 of 126 FirstFirst ... 3038394041425090 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •