View Poll Results: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share?

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  • Yes

    82 45.30%
  • No

    99 54.70%
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Thread: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

  1. #361
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    By your definition of fair. Clearly not everyone agrees with you.



    You can justify it however you want, but the fact of the matter is, you want to do the exact same thing that the poor people you villify so much want to do. You want to shift the tax burden off your shoulders and onto the shoulders of someone else. That's just human nature though, I can hardly blame you for it.



    I don't labor under any delusions. The current system sucks, and is unfair in a lot of ways, that's why I want to change it. And I do care about whether the tax system is fair (though that's not my primary concern). I'm simply not willing to let you get away with the hypocrisy of slamming the poor and middle class for wanting to shift their tax burden onto the shoulders of the wealthy when you come in here and want to do the exact same damn thing in reverse.

    the difference is we can prove that the rich

    1) pay far more of the national tax burden than their share of the income. every group other than the top one or two percent pays less. So while "fair share" is a amorphous concept, we do know that the rich pay more than their share of the income-everyone else pays less

    2) we also know that the top one percent-when calculating the two progressive federal taxes-income and estate-pay more than 40% of the tax bill. the top 5% pay more than the rest of the country combined. The rich objectivly pay for services that benefit eeryone else. Everyone else is subsidized by the rich

    So I am merely advocating people pay their share of what they use or what they want. That is a huge difference from what you want-you want the rich to continue to subsidize your artificially low taxes so you can get stuff you don't pay for

  2. #362
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    It depends on what you consider "fair". is it based on % of their income that goes towards taxes? is it based on the actual dollar amount that they pay? is it based on the amount they pay compared to the amount of govt furnished services they use?

    if you consider that every person in the US benefits from things like roads, public education, defense, R&D, etc, then a rich guy who pays a lower % of his income but a much higher actual dollar amount is paying more of his "fair share" than a guy who is living in govt housing and getting food stamps that is only paying sales and other embedded taxes
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  3. #363
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sorry but that still not comparable.
    Companies make money, from productive activity, while horse betters make money from the randomness of one horse winning.
    Someone else loses in every case of gambling, while with investing, most people can "win."

    Sorry, your gambling comparisons fall flat on their ass.
    If you believe horse racing is random chance you'll have to prove it. Many people say otherwise. It's a race, a competition - it's not throwing dice.

    Horses make money from running races. The track makes money from holding the races. It's all business and the gamblers contribute to it.

    If most people can "win" with investing then where's this risk you talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Investing isn't gambling.
    You should stop repeating this nonsense, it makes your arguments look silly.
    You haven't shown me compelling evidence to the contrary. I'm willing to be convinced - do your best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    CD's are insured by the government, your principle is guaranteed, if the bank goes under.
    Your only losses being interest and time preference.
    That's only true if it's FDIC insured - not all banks are.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-06-12 at 09:27 AM.
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  4. #364
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    We live in a global economy, giving tax breaks for Americans only, is just the same old lame protectionism.
    And until all businesses and people in all countries are living with the same rules it's not the "same old lame protectionism" - it's leveling the playing field. If China wants to waste it's people by burning them out in 5-10 years (maybe less!) that's up to them but I don't expect our companies or our government to be so callous - DO YOU? We can't stop China from abusing it's people or letting it's companies abuse it's people, but we can sure as hell level the playing field by making it more costly for Americans to invest over there and there's not a damn thing wrong with that.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  5. #365
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Up to $3000, which you can carry the extra over to the next year.
    That's so great, when you may lose several thousand, to million dollars.
    So, just to be clear, if you have capital gains of $2M but loose $1M you have to pay taxes on $1.997M? Or do you owe taxes on $1M?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #366
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The rich objectivly pay for services that benefit eeryone else. Everyone else is subsidized by the rich
    Nope! Sorry, a lot of that money is protection money in the form of military expenses (and police and firefighters locally). My wealth is nowhere near as much as yours. Shall we base taxes - or at least military expenses - off our insurance coverage? That seems fair. Your life is worth $2M or more, mine's a whole $100k, maybe. Your house is $5M, mine's $150k. Why the hell should I be forced to pay an equal share of protection compared to you???
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 06-06-12 at 09:40 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #367
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Nope! Sorry, a lot of that money is protection money in the form of military expenses (and police and firefighters locally). My wealth is nowhere near as much as yours. Shall we base taxes - or at least military expenses - off our insurance coverage? That seems fair. Your life is worth $2M or more - mine's a whole $100k, maybe. Your house is $5M, mine's $150k. Why the hell should I be forced to pay an equal share of protection compared to you???
    military expenses benefit everyone. if we were to be invaded by hordes of chinese, you will lose everything you have, same as a rich guy. the net worth of "everything you have" is irrelevant.

    My kids are home schooled. using your logic I shouldn't have to pay property tax because I don't use the service that those taxes fund.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  8. #368
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Nope! Sorry, a lot of that money is protection money in the form of military expenses (and police and firefighters locally). My wealth is nowhere near as much as yours. Shall we base taxes - or at least military expenses - off our insurance coverage? That seems fair. Your life is worth $2M or more, mine's a whole $100k, maybe. Your house is $5M, mine's $150k. Why the hell should I be forced to pay an equal share of protection compared to you???
    Let's use a simple burglery as an example. Who would lose more, a poor uninsured household or a rich insured household? Even discounting the insurance factor, the rich can easily replace the lost property with little or no effect on their ability to feed and clothe their family or pay their mortgage/rent. ;-)
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-06-12 at 09:48 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #369
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    military expenses benefit everyone. if we were to be invaded by hordes of chinese, you will lose everything you have, same as a rich guy. the net worth of "everything you have" is irrelevant.
    Of course it's relevant since we're talking about money. Bring a wrongful death suit about a dead millionaire compared to a dead janitor and see what the courts say about what a human life is worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    My kids are home schooled. using your logic I shouldn't have to pay property tax because I don't use the service that those taxes fund.
    No, that would be using TD's logic. I was just applying that logic a little more fairly than he was.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #370
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    who benefits more from a police presence? a rich guy living in a high end neighborhood or a poor guy living in the ghetto?
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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