View Poll Results: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share?

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  • Yes

    82 45.30%
  • No

    99 54.70%
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Thread: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

  1. #241
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    ttwtt78640's Avatar
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    That's the name of the game. The most excellent part is that you don't have to play the game. It's all about your personal desires. If you just have to have all the latest flotsam of "modern life", and buy the adverts hammered into you, then you have to play the game. You won't die without a television, or a cable/satellite subscription. Straight internet connections and computers can be found on the cheap, the deluxe package and speed aren't really necessary. Find a career you love, that doesn't require your absolute bondage, you'll make enough to live a joyous life, free from the constraints of the rat race.

    It's your choice.
    Exactly. People often do not believe that we pay $300/month rent for a single wide mobile home on about 1/4 acre, $125/month electric, $40/month water and no sewer as we are on septic. The trick is to spend less on the basics and then you have more for toys and fun. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #242
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    It would be fantastic if we could have a total combined tax rate of 10%. I simply don't think that's anywhere near realistic. Even if you believe in small government, and going back to the very basics that were explicitly allowed of the federal government in the constitution, I don't think a combined tax rate of 10% would be enough to support local, state, and federal governments combined.
    They used to do it on less then 1%
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  3. #243
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Nonsense, Texas has property, school and sales taxes, yet no income tax. Sales are quite brisk here in the lone star state, with an over 8% sales tax on all non-food items.
    8% is a lot different than the amount that would be necessary to support the federal government, even if we cut back on government spending significantly. Things would be different if we switched completely from an income tax to a sales tax. There would be a lot of upheaval in the country for awhile if that happened, but I think spending would get hurt, at least for awhile, when things suddenly started costing 20% more than they used to.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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  4. #244
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I've considered that solution many times actually. I love the simplicity of it, but I'm of the opinion that it's one of those ideas that is too simple to work in reality. If the point is for the deduction to take into account the cost of basic necessities, that's difficult to do with a standard deduction, because the cost of basic necessities isn't standard. Basic necessities for a family of four cost more than basic necessities for a family of two. Basic necessities in large cities cost more than basic necessities in rural areas. You could handle that with a standard deduction, but it would mean setting the standard deduction relatively high, otherwise families with a lot of kids, or who live in areas with a high cost of living would still get screwed over. And then you have the situation that we have now, where a lot of people who could afford to pay some taxes, even if it isn't a lot, aren't paying everything. That's why I think the deduction for cost of living needs to be based at minimum on family size (though there should probably be an upper limit). Basing it on geographic area could be useful too, but that's considerably more complicated, and probably has less of an effect on cost of living than family size does, so it could probably be left out without causing much problem.
    WRONG. These things, even the number of dependents, are financial choices and personal life decisions. I consider it GROSSLY unfair to tax two workers, making the same wage, laboring side by side, at different rates OR amounts. What they CHOOSE to do with their after tax earnings is their personal, private business and the decisions of one should not shift the tax burden to (or from) the other. Tax law is about raising revenue not social engineering or social justice. If you REALLY want a gov't payment to each "family" for each child they choose to have, then legislate it separately so that all may see its true cost/benefit, don't clog up the tax code with other unrealted nonsense. That is why we have zillions of pages of "tax" law now.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-04-12 at 06:53 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #245
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    They used to do it on less then 1%
    Do you have a source for this? I have trouble believing that local, state, and federal governments put together ever got by on a combined 1% tax rate.
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  6. #246
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    WRONG. These things, even the number of dependents, are financial choices and personal life decisions.
    So? That doesn't mean they don't need to be accounted for. A family of 4 can't live on $10,000 a year just because it was a choice for the parents to have kids. And as I pointed out earlier, what if the family was getting by just fine, and had been since they chose to have kids, but then one parent loses their job. Are they just supposed to put the kids up for adoption because they can no longer afford them?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I consider it GROSSLY unfair to tax two workers, making the same wage, laboring side by side, at different rates OR amounts. What they CHOOSE to do with their after tax earnings is their personal, private business and the decisions of one should not shift the tax burden to (or from) the other.
    This is why I think the concept of fairness is pointless in discussing taxation. I personally don't think it's fair that a guy working to support 3 kids at home has to pay the same amount of taxes as a bachelor whose living expenses are much lower. It doesn't really matter though. The cost of basic necessities for a family of 4 are higher than the cost of basic necessities for one person. That is a fact. And the tax code needs to account for that fact, because people can't pay taxes with money they don't have. Now you could have a standard deduction, but $10,000 isn't going to cut it. It would probably need to be more like $30,000 or $40,000 to account for large families that live in high cost of living areas. And in a lot of parts of the country, and for smaller families, they could certainly pay some taxes on $30,000 or $40,000 a year.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  7. #247
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    re·ceive   [ri-seev] Show IPA verb, re·ceived, re·ceiv·ing.
    verb (used with object)
    1.
    to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered).

    When one receives income, one takes it into one's possession. There is nothing inherent in the word receive that suggests that it was given and not earned. One can receive a paycheck as easily as a gift. Now did you have an actual point to make related to the subject at hand, or do you just want to nitpick over word choice? Because I have no interest in doing the latter.
    One EARNS a paycheck. No one gifts it. As such, no one is entitled to what you have EARNED. It may seem nitpicky to YOU...but I promise you, the difference is very real to people actually EARNING their way in life, especially when so many people insist that it isnt FAIR that people that EARN their income dont have more of it involuntarily taken from them and GIVEN to the pathetic perpetual handout crowd. "Fair share" indeed.

  8. #248
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    8% is a lot different than the amount that would be necessary to support the federal government, even if we cut back on government spending significantly. Things would be different if we switched completely from an income tax to a sales tax. There would be a lot of upheaval in the country for awhile if that happened, but I think spending would get hurt, at least for awhile, when things suddenly started costing 20% more than they used to.
    Most of that "upheaval" is simply because so few pay a "fair" share of FIT now, so yes, for them it would be a shock to pay any (more) taxes. I do not propose a national sales tax, I propose a VERY simple FIT with a single standard deduction and a single taxation rate for all income above that.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #249
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Do you have a source for this? I have trouble believing that local, state, and federal governments put together ever got by on a combined 1% tax rate.
    How do you think they passed the 16th amendment? They promissed not to go over 1% on the income tax.
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    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  10. #250
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    Re: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    So? That doesn't mean they don't need to be accounted for. A family of 4 can't live on $10,000 a year just because it was a choice for the parents to have kids. And as I pointed out earlier, what if the family was getting by just fine, and had been since they chose to have kids, but then one parent loses their job. Are they just supposed to put the kids up for adoption because they can no longer afford them?

    This is why I think the concept of fairness is pointless in discussing taxation. I personally don't think it's fair that a guy working to support 3 kids at home has to pay the same amount of taxes as a bachelor whose living expenses are much lower. It doesn't really matter though. The cost of basic necessities for a family of 4 are higher than the cost of basic necessities for one person. That is a fact. And the tax code needs to account for that fact, because people can't pay taxes with money they don't have. Now you could have a standard deduction, but $10,000 isn't going to cut it. It would probably need to be more like $30,000 or $40,000 to account for large families that live in high cost of living areas. And in a lot of parts of the country, and for smaller families, they could certainly pay some taxes on $30,000 or $40,000 a year.
    You make it sound like if you simply CHOOSE to make only enough to sustain yourself (and as big a family as you desire) then you have no tax obligation at all. That is INSANE. You then convert income tax into basically a luxury tax. The simple answer is that if you can not afford to raise a child that you wait until you can to have that child, not that you trade raising a child for paying your income taxes. If you can not afford a big house then you live in a smaller one or share one. As it is now, I pay for the education of the children for those that pay no taxes at all, plus the money to feed and house those ADULTS that chose to have them, that is insane.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 06-04-12 at 07:09 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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