View Poll Results: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

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  • Obama

    35 54.69%
  • Romney

    29 45.31%
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Thread: For Veterans and Military personnel only.[W:651]

  1. #741
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I have shown how conservatives are further right than they were in 1984.

    How would you show that I am further left than were liberals in 1984?
    Partisan differences now divide Americans more sharply than distinctions of race, religion, education or sex as a decade-long wave has pushed Democrats and Republicans to opposite corners on a wide range of formerly less partisan issues.

    On matters as disparate as environmental protection, support for the social safety net and immigration, former areas of bipartisan agreement have dissolved as Democrats have moved left and Republicans have shifted to the right, according to a major new study by the Pew Research Center, which has tracked American values over the last 25 years....

  2. #742
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It is absolutely true:

    "In a new Pew Research Center report on war and sacrifice, half of post-9/11 veterans said the Afghanistan war has been worth fighting. Only 44% felt that way about Iraq, and one-third said both wars were worth the costs."
    Survey: Veterans say Afghanistan, Iraq wars not worth it - CNN.com

    Let's do the math there. If only 44% of post 9/11 Vets think Iraq was worth fighting, that means 56% think it wasn't worth fighting. Last time I checked, 56% is a majority.
    You need to stop taking such simplistic assumptions as evidence. It is obviously far more complicated a question than can be revealed by one poll, or any poll. Much less by just one paragraph in an article on the poll.

    War and Sacrifice in the Post-9/11 Era - Page 3 | Pew Social & Demographic Trends

    "Among post-9/11 veterans, noncommissioned officers view the war in Afghanistan more approvingly (61% say it’s been worth fighting) than commissioned officers (48%) and enlisted service members (41%).7 Evaluations by rank regarding views of Iraq follow a similar pattern: 48% of noncommissioned officers say that war has been worth fighting, compared with 40% of enlisted service members and 34% of commissioned officers.

    Veterans who served in or off the coast of Iraq or who flew missions over the country at any time since the war began in March 2003 are more likely—by 52% to 41%—to say that war has been worth fighting; 59% of post-9/11 veterans who did not deploy to the Iraqi theater say that war has not been worth fighting. Views of the Afghanistan War differed little between those who were and were not deployed in that theater (53% who had been deployed view that war approvingly, versus 50% who did not serve in Afghanistan). And the perceived worth of either war did not differ significantly between post-9/11 veterans who served with someone who was seriously wounded or killed in combat and those without exposure to such serious casualties."
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  3. #743
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Second, I agree with you that policy and strategic implementation of troop forces along with results should be how we judge our Commander-in-Chief. Still, I would argue that if people are volunteering to enlist even while there's still a war going on at the same time that active duty personnel are deciding to remain on active duty at the end of their tours, doesn't that speak well of policy? (And yes, I am aware that tours have been extended for many of our military personnel, but the fact that our combat troops are still volunteering to stay on active duty in spite of this speaks volumns to how correctly aligned military policy apparently has been under Pres. Obama.)
    Or it could speak to the horrible economy that this President is responsible for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    You are correct. Many of the advanced weapons that our troops are using in theater were developed long before Obama took office. But that does not exclude the fact that he has made every effort to equip our troops with such weapons during his tenure. Consider, if you will, the cry for kevlar vest and improved Humvees with better shielding under the chassy and/or equipping with IED detectors. When did those get distributed to combat troops? Took a long time to get those vest to the troops under GW Bush. Obama all but demanded that they get such equipment. SecDef Gates went to the Pentegon and demanded that the new Humvees as described above were built at a rapid pace and shipped to Iraq with hast! This, too, happened under Obama's watch.
    A) None of the stuff you speak of was even an idea when President Bush was in. It had to be developed from the ground up. Much like the surge that President Bush approved. Whether you want to believe it or not, President Bush broke a lot of ground for President Obama that has made his going easier.
    B) The MRAP was developed during President Bush's tenure. The new MAT-V is actually less protective but more mobile. I've been in both and seen both IED'd. The MRAP wins in the "blows up good" category hands down. The MAT-V's benefits are its ability to go off road better and that its much more functional inside (radio placement, etc).
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The people of Iraq have not yet toppled the corrupt government in Iraq, but as I noted they recently had a protest that numbered 10,000, and civil strife continues. It may yet go the way of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, and Yemen.
    Cat, note the civil strife in the good ol USA....Civil strife is an indication that the people are standing up (and are able too). This never happened under the Saddam regime without a subsequent massacre. Furthermore, Democracy is infectious and is spreading throughout the middle-east.

    Think about it.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  5. #745
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What difference does it make??? There are already signs of return of the civil war in Iraq. The government there is considered one of the most corrupt in the region. The house of cards (friendly to the US) we built there will eventually be toppled just as were the corrupt governments in Tunisa, Egypt, Lybia, and Yemen.

    Its the same situation we had in Vietnam, us trying to prop up a corrupt government that a majority of the people in the country don't want.
    Yes, because our righteous and good government is not corrupt. They don't leak intelligence. They don't wastefully spend money. They don't lie to us. Wake up bro. We are in no position to point the finger in this country.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I must have missed where it said 10,000 were protesting as they were against the corrupt government in Iraq. Please provide that quote from the article. Thanks!
    Uhhhhhh, yeah, looks like you did miss it. Maybe it's because you didn't even read the friggin article.
    The New York protesters then streamed downtown, in an early evening march heading past the former Occupy Wall Street home, Zuccotti Park, to Bowling Green park near the southern tip of Manhattan. Occupy sent out a text message saying 30,000 people were in the streetsAt one point, the protest appeared to stretch about 15 city blocks.
    Thousands marched throughout Oakland Tuesday
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  7. #747
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Veterans who served in or off the coast of Iraq or who flew missions over the country at any time since the war began in March 2003 are more likely—by 52% to 41%—to say that war has been worth fighting; 59% of post-9/11 veterans who did not deploy to the Iraqi theater say that war has not been worth fighting.
    That's about what I expected - thanks for pulling up the relevant numbers.

  8. #748
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Or it could speak to the horrible economy that this President is responsible for.
    Most vets will tell you that unless you move from active duty into some high profile government job, you'll never get rich while serving in the military. Of course, if you're lucky you can eek out a decent living...if you're lucky.

    A) None of the stuff you speak of was even an idea when President Bush was in. It had to be developed from the ground up. Much like the surge that President Bush approved. Whether you want to believe it or not, President Bush broke a lot of ground for President Obama that has made his going easier.
    B) The MRAP was developed during President Bush's tenure. The new MAT-V is actually less protective but more mobile. I've been in both and seen both IED'd. The MRAP wins in the "blows up good" category hands down. The MAT-V's benefits are its ability to go off road better and that its much more functional inside (radio placement, etc).
    Thanks for the info. But it doesn't negate the fact that Pres. Obama has made sure that our troops were outfitted with the best equipment as quickly as possible straight off the production line.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Military Times Poll 2012:

    Should the U.S. have gone to war in Iraq?

    Yes 42.55%
    No 36.69%
    No opinion 15.16%
    Decline to answer 5.61%

    ...

    Do you think the war in Iraq was a success?

    Yes, very successful 10.45%
    Yes, somewhat successful 50.96%
    No, not very successful 15.16%
    No, not successful at all 8.66%
    It's too early to tell 14.78%
    Interestingly, those numbers are even higher for guard and reserve.
    I'm surprised you didn't pull these Q&A responses from the poll:

    Do you approve or disapprove of the way President Obama is handling the situation in Iraq?

    approve, 26% 522

    Disapprove, 53.98% 1084

    Neutral, 17.98% 361

    Decline to answer, 2.04% 41

    Overall, do you approve or disapprove of the way President Obama is handling his job as president?

    Approval, 21.1% 424

    Disapprove, 68.06% 1368

    Neutral, 9.6% 193

    Decline to answer, 1.24% 25

    Overall, do you approve or disapprove of the way President Obama is handling his job as commander in chief?

    Approve, 23.21% 466

    Disapprove, 63.65% 1278

    Neutral, 12% 241

    Decline to answer, 1.15% 23

    Do you agree or disagree with this statement: Generally speaking, the president and senior civilians in government should defer military matters and wartime strategy to generals and admirals.

    Agree, 64.76% 1303

    Disagree, 19.63% 395

    Neutral, 14.22% 286

    Decline to answer, 1.39% 28

    In general, would you describe your political views as:

    Very conservative, 10.97% 220

    Conservative, 44.17% 886

    Moderate, 33.35% 669

    Liberal, 5.48% 110

    Very liberal, 1.55% 31

    Decline to answer, 4.49% 90

    In politics today, do you consider yourself a:

    Democrat, 14.19% 285

    Independent, 34.41% 691

    Libertarian, 2.19% 44

    Republican, 41.43% 832

    Other, 3.04% 61

    Decline to answer, 4.73% 95
    This confirms what I already knew: Most people who are in the military are Conservatives/Republicans not Liberals, and the Generals always want to retain more power unto themselves because they firmly believe they know what's going on in theater better than anyone else. To a large degree that's true. But a careful study of past wars indicates that sometimes it takes eyes outside of the hot zone to get a clearer picture of what's truly needed not just to win the war but to fight the good fight.

    As a veteran, my consensus of our military has long been it's far more Conservative than people realize. So, it doesn't surprise me when a poll of military personnel leans more along the lines of Conservative views or against Liberal leadership. Of course, that doesn't discount the Moderates/Independents but in this instance, it helps that the paper is published by Gannett Company whose owner, Frank Gannett, himself was Conservative. If it's all the same to you, I'll take the poll for what it's worth...just another politically leaning rage.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 06-14-12 at 10:59 AM.

  9. #749
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Most vets will tell you that unless you move from active duty into some high profile government job, you'll never get rich while serving in the military. Of course, if you're lucky you can eek out a decent living...if you're lucky.
    That's because "most vets" serve one tour (3-5 years) and get out, or served before Reagan took over. The pay at the lower paygrades is, well, low. At the upper paygrades, both officer and enlisted, the pay is pretty good. Combined with benifits such as free family healthcare and tax exemptions, the QOL is on par with anyone else in America. Before you get worked up about what senior means, it means E5 and above. E5 can generally be reached within 5 years across the services (with the possible exception of the Airforce, sorry CP!)

    So, rich..maybe not, but solidly middle class.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #750
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    Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

    I know this poll is about veteran and military personnel's opinions on Pres. Obama's handling of military/veteran affairs and proposals/promises Mitt Romney has made pertaining to our military and national defense, but a few things posted on Mitt Romney's campaign webpage caught my attention the other day under "National Defense. Specifically:

    President Obama came into office with a military in serious need of modernization. However, instead of rebuilding our strength, President Obama has put us on course toward a “hollow” force. President Obama has repeatedly sought to slash funds for our fighting men and women, and over the next ten years nearly $1 trillion will be cut from the core defense budget.

    ...

    The Obama administration’s cuts have left us with a military inventory largely composed of weapons designed forty to fifty years ago.

    ...

    As Commander-in-Chief, Mitt Romney will keep faith with the men and women who defend us just as he will ensure that our military capabilities are matched to the interests we need to protect.

    ...

    This will not be a cost-free process. We cannot rebuild our military strength without paying for it. Mitt will begin by reversing Obama-era defense cuts and return to the budget baseline established by Secretary Robert Gates in 2010, with the goal of setting core defense spending — meaning funds devoted to the fundamental military components of personnel, operations and maintenance, procurement, and research and development — at a floor of 4 percent of GDP.
    Instead of pulling information from WhiteHouse.gov or even the DoD's website, I'll instead use a non-partisan source and let the charts and figures speak for themselves - data that completely contradicts Mitt Romney's claims of a aged post-WWII U.S. defense force still trapped in the age of prop planes and gravity bombs.

    From Business Insider:

    With $700 billion in projected defense cuts, and more than $1 trillion in cuts if a budget agreement can't be reached by the super-committee, military 'experts' are claiming the U.S. will be all but defenseless.

    Maybe not.

    Between 2009 and 2010 defense spending increased 3 percent even as the economy continued to slow, with the 2012 military budget claiming $1.4 trillion tax dollars.

    That amount doesn't even include classified programs and that money is buying expensive equipment that is just as costly to maintain.

    The path is unsustainable as the following charts from CFR's Center for Geoeconomic Studies will show.

    I can't post the charts and graphes here, but you can see them directly from the article or download the .pdf file copy of the article and review them for yourself. Clearly, defense spending hasn't taken a back seat under Pres. Obama as Mitt Romney and some Republicans would have one believe.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 06-14-12 at 01:00 PM.

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