View Poll Results: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

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  • Yes

    23 32.39%
  • No

    47 66.20%
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Thread: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I accept NONE of that "receive benefits" argument unless you can explain why the "marriage" contrct can then be limitted to include ONLY TWO consenting adult citizens, since a business "partnership" has no such limitations, it may include 3 or even 10 partners. Marriage contracts may also include 'prenuptual agreements' making them essentially a joke as far as "mutual commitment" and sharing lives goes.
    First of all, the addition of multiple partners would bring up legal issues without those things being covered prior to the marriage arrangement becoming legal. I'm okay with allowing more than two people in a marriage. Those wanting it though need to provide a way to ensure that the legal cases that come with those additional partners are kept to a minimum, particularly when talking about things that can easily be addressed prior to marriage. But we would still need a limit of how many to ensure that we are actually keeping the benefit of stable couples.

    And prenups can be challenged. But even without the challenge, there are still things that people are required to be responsible for for their spouse, such as decisions to be made concerning medical issues and death of their spouse. A prenup only changes compensation of money/property existing prior to the marriage to the spouse who didn't own that stuff in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    As to the point of race and convict status that has NOTHING to do with gender, the thrust of your desired change. It is clearly legal to have 'separate but equal' gender specific restrooms and prisons, seperate but equally funded gender specific college sports programs and even gender specific physical standards for military service, so get off of that gender neutral "rights" nonsense, unless you wish to "go all the way". Gender matters, believe it or not.
    Those things are still covered by the important state interest. Gender differences must meet an important state interest related to the restriction. Since gender is not the sole determining factor in whether a person can procreate and procreation is not even required as a part of being legally married, then gender requirements for procreation are not reasonable, alone, in meeting a state interest in procreation as it relates to marriage.

    Levels of Scrutiny Under the Equal Protection Clause
    Equal Protection Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The level of scrutiny and how state interests apply are very important to this argument. Ignoring that sex discrimination is allowed, but only when a proven relationship between an important state interest can be proven to be met by that discrimination. There is no important state interest being met by restricting couples from marrying on the basis of their sex alone.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #32
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Marriage adds nothing at all to relationships so it has to rely on the benefits to do much of anything and even then you don't need it.
    You need to be legally married to be seen as a legal dependent by the US military. It is a part of national security because they run background checks on the legal spouses of service members. You need to be legally married to be covered under the law that says spouses cannot be forced to testify against their spouses. In fact, many would also say that spousal conversations are held at a confidentiality level of at least doctor/patient or lawyer/client, if not higher. No other relationship between people is held at that level. And only legal marriage will give spouses at least the same level of family rights that blood relationships receive. The Family Leave Act only applies to legal family, either blood relatives, legally adopted relatives, or spouses.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are people who realize that our Constitution is important, including treating people equally under the law and not allowing people's unwarranted biases and religious/moral beliefs to be/remain enshrined within our laws.
    I agree with the "our constitution is important" argument, in fact, it is so important that it took amendment to change the voting rights based on race and gender (by separate amendments, no less) so ONLY a constitutional amendment, may give federal power over the definition of marraige contracts, now clearly NOT a federal matter.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #34
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?
    As per the 10th Amendment, Marriage, not being a specifically enumerated right, falls to the states to regulate. As per Interstate Commerce Clause, all states may have to honor another state's ssm, but they may not have to issue SSMs.

  5. #35
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastIndependent View Post
    Should the issue of slavery be left to the states?
    This is a false comparison. Please try again.

  6. #36
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You need to be legally married to be seen as a legal dependent by the US military.
    It is a part of national security because they run background checks on the legal spouses of service members.
    So you agree with this? It seems completely unnecessary to me.

    You need to be legally married to be covered under the law that says spouses cannot be forced to testify against their spouses.
    That is just not necessary.

    In fact, many would also say that spousal conversations are held at a confidentiality level of at least doctor/patient or lawyer/client, if not higher.
    Lol why?

    No other relationship between people is held at that level. And only legal marriage will give spouses at least the same level of family rights that blood relationships receive. The Family Leave Act only applies to legal family, either blood relatives, legally adopted relatives, or spouses.
    Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993? That? I'm for destroying that.
    Last edited by Henrin; 05-28-12 at 11:01 AM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You need to be legally married to be seen as a legal dependent by the US military. It is a part of national security because they run background checks on the legal spouses of service members. You need to be legally married to be covered under the law that says spouses cannot be forced to testify against their spouses. In fact, many would also say that spousal conversations are held at a confidentiality level of at least doctor/patient or lawyer/client, if not higher. No other relationship between people is held at that level. And only legal marriage will give spouses at least the same level of family rights that blood relationships receive. The Family Leave Act only applies to legal family, either blood relatives, legally adopted relatives, or spouses.
    OK, that only shows that federal law places special 'privileges' (not rights) via congressional legislation, not that state marraige contracts are then somehow federal. The very SAME process can be used to add "civil unions" in every clause that refers to a marriage in federal law, or congress may pass a federal law that says ALL federal laws, from this point forward, shall treat marriage and civil unions equally. That still leaves it up to that states to decide if they too, wish to assign the same rights to civil unions as to marriages, or even to issue such a contract. My main point is that making the definition of marraige contract law provisions into a federal power REQUIRES constitutional action as it is clearly a power currently held only by states, there is NO federal marraige contract, only references in federal laws to the state contract status of 'married'.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-28-12 at 11:05 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #38
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I agree with the "our constitution is important" argument, in fact, it is so important that it took amendment to change the voting rights based on race and gender (by separate amendments, no less) so ONLY a constitutional amendment, may give federal power over the definition of marraige contracts, now clearly NOT a federal matter.
    Marriage has already been ruled to fall under the 14th Amendment as far as equal protection goes. Since this is true, the federal government has a right, generally through the SC, to enforce the 14th Amendment on state laws regarding marriage.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #39
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, that only shows that federal law places special 'privileges' (not rights) via congressional legislation, not that state marraige contracts are then somehow federal. The very SAME process can be used to add "civil unions" in every clause that refers to a marriage in federal law, or may pass a federal law that says ALL federal laws, from this point forward, shall treat marriage and civil unions equally. That still leaves it up to that states to decide if they too, wish to assign the same rights to civil unions as to marriages, or even to issue such a contract. My main point is that making the definition of marraige contrct law a federal issue REQUIRES constitutional action as it is clearly a power currently held only by states, there is NO federal marraige contract, only references in federal laws to the state contract status of 'married'.
    I am against civil unions because a) it will likely take just as much, if not more time to get legal civil unions to the same legal level as legal marriage is now, with all the same rights and privileges and benefits that come with marriage and b) it will cost our government more to do this.

    We already have legal same sex marriage in some states. It is stupid to go back on that.

    Opposite sex couples, heterosexuals, nor religious people own the word marriage. Like it or not, legal marriage must respect the 14th Amendment Equal Protection clause. The bans against same sex marriage are against the 14th Amendment, and therefore need to be struck down.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #40
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This is a false comparison. Please try again.
    Actually it is a good one, because that took constitutional amendment to 'resolve', not a mere act of congress or the opinion of an "activist" judge.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-28-12 at 11:19 AM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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