View Poll Results: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

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  • Yes

    23 32.39%
  • No

    47 66.20%
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    1 1.41%
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Thread: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The marraige contract is more about inheritance, joint property, child custody, parental responsibility and tax law than about "love", since falling out of "love" does not, in and of itself, alter or nullify the marriage contract, mutual support obligations for children (or the spouse) or the rights to any joint property.
    The marriage contract is only consistently about family rights and the benefits that go with that within the US at this time. There is no obligation to procreate for those opposite sex couples getting married. And it does not take the ability to procreate to raise children, including having mutual support obligations to those children. Everything you have mentioned pertains to at least some same sex couples and pertains to a very similar percentage if not higher, of opposite sex couples as it does to same sex couples.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #22
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I suppose that with all the gay and tranny propaganda being pumped out on ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX and other liberal entertainment channels there will be lots of idiots to support legalizing gay marriage.
    There are people who realize that our Constitution is important, including treating people equally under the law and not allowing people's unwarranted biases and religious/moral beliefs to be/remain enshrined within our laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #23
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    I'm not sure.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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  4. #24
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The marraige contract is more about inheritance, joint property, child custody, parental responsibility and tax law than about "love", since falling out of "love" does not, in and of itself, alter or nullify the marriage contract, mutual support obligations for children (or the spouse) or the rights to any joint property.
    Very true and I can see the point, but without the License a couple can protect those things with a Will, could they not?

    I used the word in love, because that is why most people get married, but yes if they fall out of love it does not nullify the contract
    Last edited by Snake_Plissken; 05-28-12 at 10:26 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Plissken View Post
    Very true and I can see the point, but without the License a couple can protect those things with a Will, could they not?

    I used the word in love, because that is why most people get married, but yes if fall out of love it does not nullify the contract
    There are many rights that marriage gives that are not covered by any other current contracts, even in conjunction with each other. Family is held to a certain status by our laws. And spouses are held to a higher level due to the acknowledgement that married couples are offering a level of commitment, enshrined in a legal contract, that says they are willingly taking responsibility for each other financially (at least to a certain degree) and that they are willing to stay together. Stable couples have been shown to be a positive to societies. Even with allowing divorce, marriage provides a form of stability and makes it harder for those within a marriage to leave each other.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #26
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Marriage has changed throughout history several times. And if the states are not willing to limit opposite sex couples who can't have children from getting married and/or make it harder for those married couples who do have children from getting divorced and/or also "encouraging" those couples who have children outside of marriage to get married, then procreation cannot be deemed as a valid state interest in marriage.

    Incestuous sexual relationships are illegal. For both the genetic issues of children and the fact that many involved some form of undue influence beginning prior to age of consent.

    If the only obligation the federal government had was to honor and enforce state marriage contracts per state rules, then interracial marriage and convicts getting married would still be banned by some states.

    Family receive benefits and rights for just being family. There has to be a way for adults to choose a person to get those rights of family who isn't otherwise entitled to them plus extra for the mere commitment to share their lives, including expenses.
    I accept NONE of that "receive benefits" argument unless you can explain why the "marriage" contrct can then be limitted to include ONLY TWO consenting adult citizens, since a business "partnership" has no such limitations, it may include 3 or even 10 partners. Marriage contracts may also include 'prenuptual agreements' making them essentially a joke as far as "mutual commitment" and sharing lives goes.

    As to the point of race and convict status that has NOTHING to do with gender, the thrust of your desired change. It is clearly legal to have 'separate but equal' gender specific restrooms and prisons, seperate but equally funded gender specific college sports programs and even gender specific physical standards for military service, so get off of that gender neutral "rights" nonsense, unless you wish to "go all the way". Gender matters, believe it or not.

    As with the point of race and gender that took constitutional action to change the voting rights, not a mere assertion that they were "unfair" to make it become a federal control issue. Convicted felons can still be denied the right to vote.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-28-12 at 10:43 AM.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #27
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    On an ethical level, no. Whether people deserve equality is not a "state issue." It's a civil rights issue. This is like asking whether women being allowed to vote should be a state issue. The states don't get to decide to discriminate against people.

    On a practical level, I suspect there is no other way to get a big enough head of steam behind it except to let the states battle it out one-by-one until there's enough support to make a move for nation-wide legislation. And that frustrates me to no end, but it's the truth.
    Much like it was with miscegenation, I suspect it's more likely that this will be resolved at the Supreme Court, but the scenario you state could be possible as well.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I suppose that with all the gay and tranny propaganda being pumped out on ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX and other liberal entertainment channels there will be lots of idiots to support legalizing gay marriage.
    Seeing as your definition of "gay and tranny propaganda" essentially means established psychological science, I don't have a problem with this.

    In any case, propaganda or no, I've never seen you give even a remotely solid defense of your anti-SSM position
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #29
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are many rights that marriage gives that are not covered by any other current contracts, even in conjunction with each other. Family is held to a certain status by our laws. And spouses are held to a higher level due to the acknowledgement that married couples are offering a level of commitment, enshrined in a legal contract, that says they are willingly taking responsibility for each other financially (at least to a certain degree) and that they are willing to stay together. Stable couples have been shown to be a positive to societies. Even with allowing divorce, marriage provides a form of stability and makes it harder for those within a marriage to leave each other.
    Marriage adds nothing at all to relationships so it has to rely on the benefits to do much of anything and even then you don't need it.

  10. #30
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Plissken View Post
    Very true and I can see the point, but without the License a couple can protect those things with a Will, could they not?

    I used the word in love, because that is why most people get married, but yes if they fall out of love it does not nullify the contract
    I am no lawyer, but even most wills can't keep IRS out of the inheritance game, although (I think) there are some trust agreements that may accomplish that as well.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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