View Poll Results: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

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Thread: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

  1. #101
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, you now attempt to equate race and gender, so what of ALL 'separate but equal' laws based on gender? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Is title 9 now invalid for college sports? Should we boycott the olympics? Should we strike gender restrictions for the military? Should we outlaw 'separate' restrooms and prison cells for women/men?
    I have it on authority that women are now going to be allowed into Ranger school.

    This is born from women complaining that men have an easier time getting promotions because men can attend these elite schools, while women can not.

    Forget about the fact that women simply can not perform on the same physical level as men, and that allowing women into these elite combat rolls will get people killed. No. We need to make sure folks have promotion points.

    This is what gays are doing with marriage. Forget about fixing the institution, and forget that the creation of civil unions is about getting heteros into commitmentless unions and brake up more often. No. This institution is being reduced to a handful of minor tax brakes only the poor ever see and perhaps a reduced insurance premium.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-28-12 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #102
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Rather circular logic there, if marraige is a right of the people then why has the state ANY right to say that my definition (perhaps polygamy) is not valid. If I say that I am "married" to my sister, three good friends and a goat has the state a right to deny that right?
    There is no compelling interest in denying polygamy. So I would have no problem in allowing it. Did you know that polygamist marriages outweight monogamous marriages across the world?

    As for incest...sorry but this slippery slope fallacy has been debunked many times. Incestous relationships increase genetic deformities in any resulting offspring. Which not only harms the resulting child but also quite often ends up with the state helping pay for that childs needs. That is why it is not allowed. Second reason is that it is quite easy for an older sibling to negatively influence a younger sibling. Making them believe that something is OK even though it is not. When they are influenced this way then they are no longer able to make their own, informed, choice/consent. And informed consent is one of the major things required to get married. If I have to explain why informed consent is required and allowed to be required then there are deeper problems here.

    As for marrying your goat, sorry but a goat cannot give consent.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    As for marrying your goat, sorry but a goat cannot give consent.
    What?!? Listen again more closely. She said "YAHAHAHAHAHA!"
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  4. #104
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They're not the same for many things. Maybe you should check out one of those SC cases I posted earlier, Reed v Reed. That case involved gender/sex discrimination that was ruled unconstitutional by the SC under the EPC. The state had no legitimate state interest in saying that male heirs should be held in a higher regard than female heirs when it came to inheritance from a parent.

    Reed v. Reed
    OK, of the many things, that race and gender are not equal (correctly), what makes marraige off the list but military service requirments on the list? I can think of more reasons that my wife should be female than that a fellow soldier must be male, yet there are valid (compelling?) reasons for both arguments.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #105
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I have it on authority that women are now going to be allowed into Ranger school.

    This is born from women complaining that men have an easier time getting promotions because men can attend these elite schools, while women can not.

    Forget about the fact that women simply can not perform on the same physical level as men, and that allowing women into these elite combat rolls will get people killed. No. We need to make sure folks have promotion points.

    This is what gays are doing with marriage. Forget about fixing the institution, and forget that the creation of civil unions is about getting heteros into commitmentless unions and brake up more often. No. This institution is being reduced to a handful of minor tax brakes only the poor ever see and perhaps a reduced insurance premium.
    1st: There is a difference between being allowed to enter into a program and being able to physically successfully finish that program. I have no problem in allowing women to enter into the Ranger Program, so long as they can hack it then they should pass. If not then they should not be allowed to pass. Yes generally most women could not hack it. But for the ones that can...whats the big deal?

    2nd: I realize your biggest problem with SSM is that you don't know if they will commit to the marriage and not get a divorce. But you will never find out if this is true or not if you don't give them the chance. Of couse in my mind divorce is immaterial to allowing SSM. My reasons for allowing SSM are based on a fundemental right to get married.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    What?!? Listen again more closely. She said "YAHAHAHAHAHA!"
    DANG IT! Need to turn my hearing aid up! ....now where the heck did I put it????
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  7. #107
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, of the many things, that race and gender are not equal (correctly), what makes marraige off the list but military service requirments on the list? I can think of more reasons that my wife should be female than that a fellow soldier must be male, yet there are valid (compelling?) reasons for both arguments.
    Your reasons would be based on your personal view of marriage, not what legal marriage is and what is required legally for a person to do in a marriage. (I'll give you a hint, legal marriage in the US does not require procreation, either the ability or desire to do so.) Is there any other reason, besides your own personal attraction to your wife, that you think that a marriage must involve a man and a woman?

    And the bans on women in the military do not keep a woman completely out of the military. They keep a woman from being able to do certain jobs in the military because of many unique differences between men and women. Those things could easily be changed with changes in how warfare is conducted, training, and developing new, lighter equipment and/or equipment that will "enhance" physical attributes of either sex. At the moment, we recognize that the vast majority of women are not as strong as men, require certain considerations in their sanitation/medical needs, and are viewed, due to their sex, differently by many men than other men are. These are valid state interests for keeping women out of certain military jobs. As we develop newer technology and perhaps different male/female relationships, we may see these rules changing as well.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #108
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1st: There is a difference between being allowed to enter into a program and being able to physically successfully finish that program. I have no problem in allowing women to enter into the Ranger Program, so long as they can hack it then they should pass. If not then they should not be allowed to pass. Yes generally most women could not hack it. But for the ones that can...whats the big deal?
    As always, the standards will be lowered so that women can pass. Not only will women not be able to perform on a man's level, they won't even be expected to. this is the theme through all military training. Females have lower standards to achieve.

    Introducing females into tight fire teams is disastrous for the additional reason of romantic interests. Even if a women could perform on a man's level, romantic relationships will form, and then brake up, then she's going out with the first guy's buddy, and now she's just broken up a fire team, all for the sake of a few promotion points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    2nd: I realize your biggest problem with SSM is that you don't know if they will commit to the marriage and not get a divorce. But you will never find out if this is true or not if you don't give them the chance.
    I've heard that line a million times (literary) on this forum. You say it as though SSM could ever be repealed. You either think I'm incredibly ignorent of how the law works, you're incredibly ignorant yourself.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-28-12 at 01:57 PM.

  9. #109
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    If there is compelling interest in allowing those things then they should be allowed. Not all rights are absolute. Even the right to free speech is limited. The right to own a gun is limited. Every right that we have is limited in some way shape or form. But those limitations does not mean that those rights do not exist.

    So what is the compelling interest in denying SSM?
    The compelling interest in denying SSM is the same that denies polygamy, traditional limitations on the definition of 'family'. We have created 'special' legal realtionships for husband and wife, primarily to reenforce the traditional familiy unit by confering some legal advantages to it. For those that feel that this is unfair to homosexuals, polygamists, those believing in 'free love' or absolute individual equal protection under the law, it is "wrong", but the vast majority like it (or at least accept it). We now have all sorts of moronic things like 'bad' discrimination (race or gender bans) and 'good' discrimination (race or gender perks), yet we seem to accept that some forms of discrimination are for the general good, traditional marraige simply being one of them. Adding yet another class of 'special' (super?) or protected citizens, based on sexual orientation, is a bad idea, just as 'affirmative action' and 'hate crime' laws are bad ideas, since they (by definition) make for unequal protection under the law and help to prolong the recognition of differences and thus actually seem to slow setting them aside.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #110
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The compelling interest in denying SSM is the same that denies polygamy, traditional limitations on the definition of 'family'. We have created 'special' legal realtionships for husband and wife, primarily to reenforce the traditional familiy unit by confering some legal advantages to it. For those that feel that this is unfair to homosexuals, polygamists, those believing in 'free love' or absolute individual equal protection under the law, it is "wrong", but the vast majority like it (or at least accept it). We now have all sorts of moronic things like 'bad' discrimination (race or gender bans) and 'good' discrimination (race or gender perks), yet we seem to accept that some forms of discrimination are for the general good, traditional marraige simply being one of them. Adding yet another class of 'special' (super?) or protected citizens, based on sexual orientation, is a bad idea, just as 'affirmative action' and 'hate crime' laws are bad ideas, since they (by definition) make for unequal protection under the law and help to prolong the recognition of differences and thus actually seem to slow setting them aside.
    Except polygamy is not being denied on the same basis. Polygamy is denied because polygamy does not fit into the current marriage contract. Changing the number of people within the marriage actually does raise legal issues pertaining to the government rights/benefits of marriage.

    And you have yet to explain why a legal marriage contract requires a man and a woman. The contract involves legal rights, benefits and responsibilities that involve two people becoming the beneficiaries and responsible parties for those things. What part of a person's sex relative to another prevents them from taking on those legal responsibilities and/or causes problems with the distribution of those legal rights/benefits?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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