View Poll Results: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

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    23 32.39%
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    47 66.20%
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Thread: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

  1. #91
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Yet both segregation and inter-racial marriage bans survived the enactment of the 14th Amendment by about a hundred years.
    True, but we have since then rectified that situation, which in turn has opened our eyes to other things that could be discriminatory and increased our understanding of why things are discriminatory and why they should or should not still be in place.

    Many of the earlier court decisions, even some of the SC, had references to God in their reasoning. We have certainly come to realize that this is not a valid reason for upholding any law, at least at the level of our highest courts. Even attorneys now days are highly unlikely to invoke God or religion as a reason for keeping a law in place. That may be the underlying reason for the law to be in place, but they will attempt to rationalize that through much more secular reasoning.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #92
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time that the definition of marriage has been ruled wrong and discriminatory. Loving vs Virginia.
    OK, you now attempt to equate race and gender, so what of ALL 'separate but equal' laws based on gender? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Is title 9 now invalid for college sports? Should we boycott the olympics? Should we strike gender restrictions for the military? Should we outlaw 'separate' restrooms and prison cells for women/men?
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-28-12 at 01:05 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #93
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, you now attempt to equate race and gender, so what of ALL 'separate but equal' laws based on gender?
    Both race and gender are protected under the 14th Amendment's EPC. They may not be at the same level of scrutiny but they still are protected.

    And the existence of some laws that separate the genders does not invalidate that same sex marriage violates the EPC. The state still needs some state interest in only limiting marriage on the basis of race, within the confines of the current argues being used for same sex marriage bans.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #94
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Yet both segregation and inter-racial marriage bans survived the enactment of the 14th Amendment by about a hundred years.
    OK, you now attempt to equate race and gender, so what of ALL 'separate but equal' laws based on gender? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Is title 9 now invalid for college sports? Should we boycott the olympics? Should we strike gender restrictions for the military? Should we outlaw 'separate' restrooms and prison cells for women/men?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #95
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What about the 10th amendment that specifically gives the states power to do what the federal gov't may not? The constitution gives the federal gov't certain specified powers, leaving all others to the states or granting them to the people directly (prohibing either the federal or state gov't from limitting them). Marraige is NOT a right of the people, it is a right of the state, confered as a privilege, after meeting the state conditions and paying a fee, only to the approved people. You have no more of a right to be married than to drive a car, only that once being married, the state can not revoke/suspend that permit as easily as a driver's license.
    Look at the 9th Amendment also...

    "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    This means that there are rights held by the people which the Constitution does not enumerate. So, just because something is not in the Constitution does not mean that there is no fundemental right to, in this case, marry.

    And SCOTUS has ruled previously that marriage IS a fundemental Right. Once marriage got that designation then it was no longer just a states rights issue. It became a constitutional issue as well.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  6. #96
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Both race and gender are protected under the 14th Amendment's EPC. They may not be at the same level of scrutiny but they still are protected.

    And the existence of some laws that separate the genders does not invalidate that same sex marriage violates the EPC. The state still needs some state interest in only limiting marriage on the basis of race, within the confines of the current argues being used for same sex marriage bans.
    Clever argument, that they are not the same EXCEPT for marraige laws, how convenient. How about the interest of tradition? What interest, other than tradition, would make polygamy "wrong" or a compelling state interest in keeping it from being a recognized marraige situation? After all, legal polygamy predates legal same sex unions, does it not?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #97
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Yet both segregation and inter-racial marriage bans survived the enactment of the 14th Amendment by about a hundred years.
    One reason for this is bigotry and racism. SCOTUS judges are not infallible.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  8. #98
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Clever argument, that they are not the same EXCEPT for marraige laws, how convenient. How about the interest of tradition? What interest, other than tradition, would make polygamy "wrong" or a compelling state interest in keeping it from being a recognized marraige situation? After all, legal polygamy predates same sex unions, does it not?
    They're not the same for many things. Maybe you should check out one of those SC cases I posted earlier, Reed v Reed. That case involved gender/sex discrimination that was ruled unconstitutional by the SC under the EPC. The state had no legitimate state interest in saying that male heirs should be held in a higher regard than female heirs when it came to inheritance from a parent.

    Reed v. Reed
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #99
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Look at the 9th Amendment also...

    "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    This means that there are rights held by the people which the Constitution does not enumerate. So, just because something is not in the Constitution does not mean that there is no fundemental right to, in this case, marry.

    And SCOTUS has ruled previously that marriage IS a fundemental Right. Once marriage got that designation then it was no longer just a states rights issue. It became a constitutional issue as well.
    Rather circular logic there, if marraige is a right of the people then why has the state ANY right to say that my definition (perhaps polygamy) is not valid. If I say that I am "married" to my sister, three good friends and a goat; has the state a right to deny that right (ok, the state can deny my goat, their signature is quite sloppy)?
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-28-12 at 01:23 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #100
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be left to the States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK, you now attempt to equate race and gender, so what of ALL 'separate but equal' laws based on gender? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Is title 9 now invalid for college sports? Should we boycott the olympics? Should we strike gender restrictions for the military? Should we outlaw 'separate' restrooms and prison cells for women/men?
    If there is compelling interest in allowing those things then they should be allowed. Not all rights are absolute. Even the right to free speech is limited. The right to own a gun is limited. Every right that we have is limited in some way shape or form. But those limitations does not mean that those rights do not exist.

    So what is the compelling interest in denying SSM?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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