View Poll Results: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

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  • Completely - it is entirely our fault

    2 5.71%
  • Slightly - it's partially our fault

    11 31.43%
  • Neutral

    3 8.57%
  • Not our fault at all

    19 54.29%
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Thread: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

  1. #21
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    Personally, I think it's ridiculous when people say that people in Africa starve because of us.

    People say that the only way we can afford to live as well as we do is because of poor children in Africa. This is utter garbage. Barely anything, other than a bit of oil, is exported out of Africa. There are starving children in Africa mainly because the continent is a jumbled mess of civil wars and religious terrorism.

    Sure there are children in India/China/etc. working to make our shoes, but that's not our fault.
    Assuming "we" means current Americans, the answer is yes and no. We are not directly responsible for it's current state. Africa, as it is now as a continent, is the product of hundreds of years of problems, most of which, I would say, stem from colonization. Therefore, we are not directly responsible for it in it's entirety. We are directly responsible for whatever we or our government has done to add to or prolong the disorder.

    We are, however, indirectly responsible by inaction. We are not doing all that we can to help create order, increase education and take other actions that would propel Africa to stability. However, that's true about everything. We aren't doing everything we can to help a lot of people, including our own citizens.

  2. #22
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake_Plissken View Post
    We as in The USA?

    I believe the US gave 8 Billion to Africa in 2009, 7 billion or so in 2010 and 2011

    No telling how much non-government resources gave to them.
    "Giving" money evidently does little to no good....Who recieves it ?
    Their governments cannot be trusted, nor can the people....
    I'd be prone to say - let them be - try to be respectful and tolerant...
    Most of the oil money should goto the people, but in the form of, for instance, a good clean water system for the people.....schools...hospitals..

  3. #23
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    It isn't the American people's fault at all.

    The problem is the aid we do give ends up going to the Elite class in those other countries. Your donations hardly reach the truly desperate people as their governments decide how to allocate food aid and what not.
    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

  4. #24
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Other than the size of the group, what's the difference?
    A nation is composed of many peoples, who choose to bind together for the advancement of the greater good. And ideally they respect all others as well.

    If you look at most nations, they as a general rule do not slaughter others smply because of what tribe or nation they belong to. They do not persecute others simpy because they are from another nation. Sure, it does still happen, but much less likely then in tribal groups.

    If you want a good example of how a nation can be formed of essentially tribal groups then fall apart again, look at Yugoslavia. Or Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or ante bellum United States. When peoples eventually put aside tribal differences (be it as a family tribe or a self-identified grouping) and put the needs of the nation as a whole first they generally go much futher then they did as seperate warring components.

    Tribalism is not dependent on the size of the group, but on the mindest of that group.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  5. #25
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No, it's not our fault, except that we have tried to buy and manipulate it into success to a certain extent. As my friend from Botswana loves to say, as he shakes his head sadly, "Africa will always be Africa". The continent, and many of its countries have horrible problems with crime, corruption, and ignorance. It's very sad, but for the most part, Africa will have to fix Africa.
    If you call:

    deliberately creating political instability
    supporting the assassination of democratically elected leaders
    extracting trillions in ressources at bargain prices
    supporting rebel factions that murder leaders
    etc

    steering somebody towards success, you really do deserve the title of libertarian.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #26
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Who's we?

    If you mean Europe, yes.

    But some of the blame goes to the Africans themselves, that is, the ones who screwed things over even more.
    Last edited by Van Basten; 05-28-12 at 10:12 PM.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  7. #27
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    true-colonial powers created artificial borders (like Gambia which was based on how far the British navy could extend its might into the French colony of senegal) or divided tribal nations.

    Chinua Achebe's books like No longer at ease and THings Fall Apart are edifying as to the influence-and problems caused-by British influence in Nigeria. Both excellent books, I recommend them highly
    I never read No Longer at Ease, but Things Fall Apart is one of my all time favorites. Seems like a response to Heart of Darkness, which I also hope to read.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  8. #28
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    No, Africa has been a jacked upnation of tribal fighting for thousands of years. Even the Egyptians considered those from "upstream" of the Nile to be savages.

    And you can't blame the borders or anything else either. Long before the modern borders were ceated, you had tribal fighting and tribal savagery. It has gone on for thousands of years, and will likely continue for thousands more. Even the Slave Trade started because tribes would raid neighboring tribal enemies and sell them off for money. Now they just slaughter them as in Darfur. Lyberia was a nation created for freed slaves, but once back in Africa they simply made slaves of the tribes that lived in that area.

    Until the people stop putting all their allegiance into tribes and start putting it to themselves as a nation, it will continue.

    And before anybody thinks this is some racist rant, it is not. This is a rant against "Tribalism", be it the Tribe of Afrikaners, Iraq, Afghanistan, or Somalia and Uganda. When some group decides another group is not fit to live, or slaughters them for some imagined or real insult 300 years prior.
    Tribal fighting existed in Medieval Europe. I fully acknowledge the horrors of tribalism, but European borders did not regard tribal distinctions and forced Hutus and Tutsis to live together with the Tutsis in charge, which led to the Rwandan Genocide. There were also glorious African empires that were destroyed by the Europeans.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  9. #29
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Tribal fighting existed in Medieval Europe. I fully acknowledge the horrors of tribalism, but European borders did not regard tribal distinctions and forced Hutus and Tutsis to live together with the Tutsis in charge, which led to the Rwandan Genocide. There were also glorious African empires that were destroyed by the Europeans.
    Actually, by the time the Europeans came, those "African Empires" were almost all dead and burried already. Crushed by the Islamic Empires of the 8th-17th centuries.

    And the only "African Empire" that actually successfully resisted the European colonization and remained an Empire was Ethiopia. But that kingdom was overthrown by a Communist coup.

    And since you mentioned Rwanda, there is more there then apparently you know. When the Germans took control of the area, the area was already a mix of Twa, Hutu and Tutsi. The kingdom in the area was ruled by a dynasty of Tutsi rulers, who pushed all the Twa and Hutu subjects into a position of little more then slaves (some anthropologists believe the Tutsi and Hutu are the same group, just different castes). And of course the Germand and later Belgians used te pre-existing organization, and continued to support Tutsi domination of the region.

    But the Kingdom of Rwanda was formed in the 15th century by the Tutsi, and dominated with and without the Europeans until the overthrow of the Monarchy in 1962 by the Hutu. No European power "forced Hutus and Tutsis to live together with the Tutsis in charge", it had been that way for over 300 years before the European came to the area.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  10. #30
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    Re: Are we to blame for Africa's current state?

    When I said "we" I meant those of us currently living in the USA. Not our ancestors. Not our great grandparents or their generation. Just those of us who are currently alive and live in the US.

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