Taser Use

lpast said:

Pepper spray has blinded people...batons break bones...and when you get 2 or 3 cops swinging batons at someone flailing and kicking its VERY easy and happened often that the baton hits them in a very vulnerable spot that the cop wasnt aiming at and the person moved right into it...like a cheekbone or an eyesocket...Ive said this in 4 or 5 posts here and everyone either blows past it or thinks im just full of it....
Im telling you that batons and pepper spray caused more injuries natural and physical than tasers...tasers are quicker and theres less time for crowd formation...and the subdue much faster which is always a good thing for everyone...but some people have such a mentality towards police nothing is good enough for them...what can i say to that...shrug have fun with the hate..

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Agreed man.
I can speak on this because I have trained with every tool we are speaking of.
Batons: I have hit people and been hit with batons during Non-Lethal Weapons course. Batons are not an effective weapon overall. Sure, they can break a bone but that's not what you want when using it. You want to take the person down. You want minimal damage when using weapons such as these. If I'm using a baton, I'm obviously using it because I don't want to kill the person I'm using it against. Well, if I don't want to kill them, why not make the pain as humane as possible? Ending up with a broken bone is not my idea of humane.
Pepper Spray: I have been sprayed with military grade oleoresin capsicum or OC spray. Commonly called pepper spray although the military grade is much stouter than what you can get on the civilian market. Anyway, pepper spray is not going to kill anyone, unless in a rare case of allergies or something. It can blind you if used improperly however. No amount of training with this stuff can factor out the human factor. In other words, you never know when the guy you are trying to spray will get a wild hare and jump at you while you are deploying your OC spray. If he's too close, it may hit him in an exposed eyeball and possibly blind him. Also, OC spray sticks with a person for a LONG time. You can be in almost unimaginable pain for hours after it being used. I don't want to deal with someone in that kind of pain if I'm a cop. Why? You never know what they're going to do. Finally, some people are immune to it. A smal portion of the population, but some are.
Taser: I have been tased. It sucks. It made me piss myself. You know what else it did? Incapacitated me. I was at the mercy of whomever was in the room for that brief time. That's what you want if you are the cop. The person endures pain for the shortest amount of time why also being made completely docile so you can cuff them. Studies have shown that 99.7% of individuals that have tasers used on them do not die. In a perfect world, that number would be 100%. But, this isn't a perfect world. I would offer that the small percentage of people that die from tasers is far outweighed by how many have died from physical altercations with cops after they refuse to comply.

lpast said:

Rogue I know that...I posted that 20 pages back...let me repeat what ive said here...The incident would never have taken place if they cops werent sworn to uphold an bad law....after that it was all on her..she categorically refused every thing she was asked to do...so what was left...lets be clear, the police at that point could not and would not say...ok you dont want to do anything we ask..so were screwed now and have to just let you go...doesnt work like that, never will. She had to go and they made her...as unfortunate as that was.

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I agree. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the law was changed, the case should have been dropped. There was nothing else she deserved beyond getting that stupid law changed. She brought everything else upon herself.

I would rather be tazed every day than have to suffer OC spray ever again. I was in pain for HOURS after our
OC training. Tazer training sucked for the 5 seconds you rode the lightnin but as soon as it was over the pain stopped

Connery said:

I asked about your experience as it related to your original position.


You are entitled to express your views. I was simply asking about your experience. You have erected some construct which is outside the parameters of our original discussion which I chose not to get involved with.

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It's not outside the parameters. You just made a stupid question in order to over constrain a response. As I said, I do not need personal experience to know that one is better off relying on themselves than the cops for their own protection. There is plenty of data which says exactly that.

Oscar-
were you tased in the neck?

notquiteright said:

Oscar-
were you tased in the neck?

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Being tasered sucks...no question or doubt about it...it may very well be the worst 5 seconds of your life...but here some fact for you...no police recruit has died from being tasered and they all get tasered in the academy....healthy people do not die from being tasered....people that have underlying issues that can be brought out by being tasered...but those same issues would arise if they were physically being restrained or a baton was in use...tasering someone repeatedly should never be done and that can cause issues...

notquiteright said:

Oscar-
were you tased in the neck?

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Have you ever been tazed at all?

I have been tazed several times for training purposes. Once had an electrode attached to my boot, linked arms with another guy and the other electrode attached to his boot.

It sucked

Once shot between the shoulder blades.

It sucked

Once shot in the ass

It sucked

Once shot in the chest

It sucked

And once in a bar the popo shot a guy next to me and one of the lead wires hit the side of my face

It sucked.

Point being, it really doesn't matter where you get tazed. It sucks. But as soon as they release the trigger it is over.

Ikari said:

It's not outside the parameters. You just made a stupid question in order to over constrain a response. As I said, I do not need personal experience to know that one is better off relying on themselves than the cops for their own protection. There is plenty of data which says exactly that.

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I never said that you needed personal experience.

I asked you if you had personal experience.....


I understand that you have some special requirements, therefore, for your convenience I will post the question as asked once again. As you can see it is a very close ended question.

Connery said:

Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.

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Again trying to change the facts to fit whatever you conjure up in your mind....you are very tiresome at this point. Have you practiced Danny Boy we are all waiting for you...:lol:

Connery said:

Again trying to change the facts to fit whatever you conjure up in your mind....you are very tiresome at this point. Have you practiced Danny Boy we are all waiting for you...:lol:

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It's not trying to change anything. As I've said, I have not needed the police for anything as of yet; they've only proven a hindrance. However, the statement I made is true and is not dependent upon personal experience. You're trying to reverse engineer an answer through over-constraint of a question. Information isn't limited to personal experience and can be used to draw proper conclusion.

And I haven't practiced Danny Boy. Sadly the days of the ol' garage band are over and now I have better things to do than to sit around with a group of dudes playing band.

Like say in the neck? Or pregnant? Again you seem intent on only using the baton to beat people. Is your training that limited?

It is one thing to subject someone, a police or military recruit who has had a psychical exam, to tasering, but once again, back on topic, not PG ladies in the neck.

I am not a big believer in the sprays. Sucks to use them in a confined area, as bad for the cops as the bad guy. You really can't handle a detainee once he is doused, and your patrol car will reek.

But it seems for some training isn't as important as a new 'tool'.

The difference between a 'problem' (that should read between sending a citizen to the hospital and then losing a healthy chuck of the city's (taxpayer) money in a lawsuit) is the detainee will have to be cuffed, they do not have to be tased IF, and IF is the biggest word in the English language, the Cops are trained in pressure points and come alongs. Now I NEVER said tasers are not useful, but again they are most likely used way too often, for the three reasons I have mentioned earlier. I say again, big difference between a small bruise on her hand and complaining her other arm hurts and nice hospital pics of her taser burns.

Taser a drunk combative rather large individual out of the vehicle... that is not the same thing as a PG woman having a meltdown. (You know this)

But we have covered all this before and you should know by now I do know a bit about what force feels like, the pros and cons on sprays, tasers, batons, pressure points, come a longs....

So when I ask the guys who have been tased and seem to think their very limited experience with 5 seconds of discharge makes them capable of speaking on typical taser use if their 'vast' experience included being tasered in the neck...

I think it is a very valid question and one they should answer, not have others dissembling.

Ikari said:

It's not trying to change anything. As I've said, I have not needed the police for anything as of yet; they've only proven a hindrance.

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So then the answer to my question is NO , correct?

You're trying to reverse engineer an answer through over-constraint of a question.

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Stop listening to the voices in your head.

Information isn't limited to personal experience and can be used to draw proper conclusion.

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Correct, except when you are asked to draw upon your personal experiences...

And I haven't practiced Danny Boy. Sadly the days of the ol' garage band are over and now I have better things to do than to sit around with a group of dudes playing band.

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Again your reading comprehension and cognitive skills fail you. I said I was in a Barbershop Quartet, that means four, and we needed a fifth , with you being the pivot man, you would fit right in with your wonderful talents...:giggling:

notquiteright said:

So when I ask the guys who have been tased and seem to think their very limited experience with 5 seconds of discharge makes them capable of speaking on typical taser use if their 'vast' experience included being tasered in the neck...

I think it is a very valid question and one they should answer, not have others dissembling.

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The point you seem intent on ignoring is that it makes virtually no difference where the tazer is applied, the effect is the same.

Screaming about being tazed IN THE NECK!!!!!!! only makes you look hysterical.

Neck, nuts or kneecaps, it really doesn't matter.

Connery said:

Correct, except when you are asked to draw upon your personal experiences...

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But being "asked to draw upon your personal experiences" is nothing more than a ploy to hide other information. It's dishonest at best.

Connery said:

So then the answer to my question is NO , correct?

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So what? That still doesn't prove the point you were trying to make

Correct, except when you are asked to draw upon your personal experiences

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You want personal experiences? I am a US Army reserve military police officer (CPT) have been for 10 years. I also have a concealed carry permit.

Several years ago I came home to a burglar in my home. The guy had used a crowbar to force the back door. Had I been unarmed, he would have either a.) gotten away or b.) beaten me to death. As it was, I was able to hold him at gunpoint for the 20 minutes it took for the sheriff's dept to arrive after I called 911.

While deployed to Ft Benning, I responded to a domestic call. Even though it took me less than 3 minutes to arrive on scene, the husband had stabbed the wife in the chest with a butcher knife and slit his throat. She was dead at the scene and he bled out while waiting for the paramedics to arrive.

Point is, you cannot rely on the police being there in time to save your life in a crisis. We/they do the best we can but you cannot change the laws of physics.

Ikari said:

But being "asked to draw upon your personal experiences" is nothing more than a ploy to hide other information. It's dishonest at best.

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Now ploys???...:lamo:lamo:lamo

You are showing your fearful side, I can understand why you distrust others as much as you do. I was asking you a simple question really.

OscarB63 said:

So what? That still doesn't prove the point you were trying to make

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It is the answer to my question.

You want personal experiences? I am a US Army reserve military police officer (CPT) have been for 10 years. I also have a concealed carry permit.

Several years ago I came home to a burglar in my home. The guy had used a crowbar to force the back door. Had I been unarmed, he would have either a.) gotten away or b.) beaten me to death. As it was, I was able to hold him at gunpoint for the 20 minutes it took for the sheriff's dept to arrive after I called 911.

While deployed to Ft Benning, I responded to a domestic call. Even though it took me less than 3 minutes to arrive on scene, the husband had stabbed the wife in the chest with a butcher knife and slit his throat. She was dead at the scene and he bled out while waiting for the paramedics to arrive.

Point is, you cannot rely on the police being there in time to save your life in a crisis. We/they do the best we can but you cannot change the laws of physics.

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How do you know he would have beaten you to death?


"Point is, you cannot rely on the police being there in time to save your life in a crisis." That was not my position, I stated, "Based on my experience as a policeman I know you are wrong." Statistics show certain information. That is not what I was looking for here. I have a certain experience that countered that poster's position. He wanted to broaden that to include many others experience.

Connery said:

It is the answer to my question.

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Your question was irrelevant to the point being made

How do you know he would have beaten you to death?

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You are right, he probably would have just said "oops, my bad" and left so that I could give his description to the cops. :roll:

That was not my position, I stated, "Based on my experience as a policeman I know you are wrong." Statistics show certain information. That is not what I was looking for here. I have a certain experience that countered that poster's position. He wanted to broaden that to include many others experience.

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From what I saw the comment that started this was him saying "you can't rely on the cops to save your life". You countered with a strawman comment twisting his point into "the police will let you die". That is not what he said.

If you have some other point please restate it. I am not going back to dig rhrough pages of comments to find it.

Otherwise you are just playing a silly game of "gothca"

Connery said:

"Based on my experience as a policeman I know you are wrong." Statistics show certain information. That is not what I was looking for here. I have a certain experience that countered that poster's position. He wanted to broaden that to include many others experience.

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Your experience is the incomplete set. Based on my experience of physics, I know you are incorrect. You cannot know things ahead of time, you cannot poof to where ever you are needed most. Furthermore, given the aggregate crime statistics, you are also wrong.

OscarB63 said:

From what I saw the comment that started this was him saying "you can't rely on the cops to save your life". You countered with a strawman comment twisting his point into "the police will let you die". That is not what he said.

If you have some other point please restate it. I am not going back to dig rhrough pages of comments to find it.

Otherwise you are just playing a silly game of "gothca"

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I'm glad this is blatantly clear to others as well. These stupid little games wherein people try to engineer an answer through rejection of data is annoying and stupid. It's only engaged in by the intellectually dishonest or those unable to understand what they are doing. A fully functioning human knows better.

Ikari said:

Your experience is the incomplete set.

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Now you are telling me about my experience....

Based on my experience of physics, I know you are incorrect.

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What is your experience of physics.

You cannot know things ahead of time, you cannot poof to where ever you are needed most.

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Never said I could

Furthermore, given the aggregate crime statistics, you are also wrong

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I asked you your experience. You were the one who introduced crime statistics, which I have not challenged.

OscarB63 said:

From what I saw the comment that started this was him saying "you can't rely on the cops to save your life". You countered with a strawman comment twisting his point into "the police will let you die". That is not what he said.

If you have some other point please restate it. I am not going back to dig rhrough pages of comments to find it.

Otherwise you are just playing a silly game of "gothca"

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This is baloney.

Connery said:

Now you are telling me about my experience....

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Seriously, can you not read. I am not telling you about your experience, I am saying it is an incomplete set. You're experience does not incorporate all the data.

Connery said:

What is your experience of physics.

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I have a PhD in it, I know how it works.

Connery said:

Never said I could

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Which goes to prove my point

Connery said:

I asked you your experience. You were the one who introduced crime statistics, which I have not challenged.

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And I gave it, my experience with physics says you are wrong. One is certainly much better of relying on themselves to protect themselves than to hope that the police find out and get there in time.

Can you just please stop with the stupid, it's getting really annoying.

Connery said:

This is baloney.

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:roll: dude, i read the post. Don't force me to embarass you further by quoting it.

Either make your alleged point or let it drop

OscarB63 said:

Your question was irrelevant to the point being made




You are right, he probably would have just said "oops, my bad" and left so that I could give his description to the cops. :roll:



From what I saw the comment that started this was him saying "you can't rely on the cops to save your life". You countered with a strawman comment twisting his point into "the police will let you die". That is not what he said.

If you have some other point please restate it. I am not going back to dig rhrough pages of comments to find it.

Otherwise you are just playing a silly game of "gothca"

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Thats not true oscar ikari made that statment connery made no such statement...Ikari said my saying you cant rely on the police doesnt mean they would let anyone die....

OscarB63 said:

:roll: dude, i read the post. Don't force me to embarass you further by quoting it.

Either make your alleged point or let it drop

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Oscar you came in way late into this thread...the exchange between ikari and connery started before you got in it....