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Taser Use

Is using a taser to arrest a noncoperative but nonviolent person "excessive force"


  • Total voters
    50
Oh...In a perfect world, perhaps..
In real life, the police will use excessive force at times....they are men....imperfect....be thankful that tazers are used, not guns...
IMO, the police ttraining can be improved, and it has been, at least in most states.
The citizens training can also be much better..
Our schools ?
too often...ugh !

Your pretty much on the mark earthworm :)
 
You have just proven what was once thought impossible, you are speaking from a part of the anatomy that was never meant to utter a word.

Just face facts your position is without merit...:lol:

Then you can tell me how the police will show up the minute I need them, yes? I mean, I'm talking out of my ass, so obviously you can demonstrate your teleportation and precognition. I'd like to see it. You have proof? Or are you the one talking out of your ass?
 
Oh Lordee! :blink:
 
I've read most of this and I think the biggest issue was the law requiring the person to sign a traffic ticket or get arrested. The law has since been changed.

I don't have any issue with what the cops in this situation did. The law may have been wrong but it is still their job to enforce the law. If it were something like her driving a poorly maintained vehicle that really couldn't be operated any more on the road but she refused to leave it and had the same situation occur, I wouldn't feel any problem with the situation at all. If she would have fought the law for her to get arrested the right way, in court, instead of by refusing to leave her car, she would have been justified. Instead she resisted arrest and brought those issues onto herself. She is at fault for her tasering.
 
But that has no effect on Arete's valid criticism of Mathematician's argument. Mathematician argued that people who don't comply "deserve to have the crap tased out of them." That statement includes people who can/will control their impulses which means that force isn't needed. That's the point and when you use force against people who aren't a threat just because they "deserve it," it's baseless, authoritarian type nonsense.

Cooperate and sign the ticket and we'll avoid this conversation in the future. It wouldn't surprise me in the least for her to later be like "What ticket? I didn't get no ticket. They just wrote my name on there and made this **** up."
 
Ikari...Cops dont care if you like them or distrust them, they really really dont....Theres two sides to every story Ikari..

I certainly don't care who does and doesn't like the cops. Some people don't like them simply because they disagree with certain laws and want to be disobedient.
 
So, now the question: the woman was no threat and was simply refusing to comply. In that type situation, is the inflicting of intense pain a violation of the constitution? A further question that does not translate well to a poll so just type out an answer...where does the line get drawn? When are police justified in using a taser, and when is it excessive?

If someone is resisting arrest then sure the police should be allowed to use taser , tear gas, pepper spray or some other non-lethal tool at their disposal.
 
I don't see any need to sign the ticket. The cop has the ticket reciept and if the person doesn't take the ticket the cop can mail it. Done. No need to get physical about a ticket. Unless a person is a danger there is no reason to lay hands on them.

The procedure was implemented so that the ticket serves basically as a court summons and notification of a fine due. Simply signing the ticket, puts you automatically on a personal promise to pay the ticket or to appear in court to contest it. Refusing to sign the ticket is considered the same as a 'failure to appear' in court status, whereby a bench warrant is then issued for your arrest. If you fail to pay the fine or to appear in court then you are found 'guilty' and the fine is increased. Rather than pay court process servers, be forced into the extra paperwork/postage costs for a later notice or even having to rely on your address on the license being up to date, the simple signing of the ticket, at the time it is issued, was deemed to be the most efficient 'confirmation' method that you were properly served.
 
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lpast-
What I have seen of you in this thread is the typical combination of trite expressions, attempting to lecture civilians and dismissing people, me, who have some expertise on what it takes to handle pregnant women having a meltdown on the side of the road. I have 30 years of running with cops. Been buddies with several for all that time. Is how I got into Instructing and being the arrestee in training future LE. Oh the stories you cops tell during breaks in training... couple that with NTOA videos and my oh my some of the dumb things 'professional' LE do under stress/during a confrontation. The old dodge of "You weren't there" is rapidly running out with the increase of dash cams and mikes on cops. One of my cop buddies is the sheriff of the next county over, he fired a deputy for turning his mike off during a traffic stop.

Now about the trite everyone hates cops till you need one.

More to the point is everyone hates a punk cop, even when you need one. :)

moving on-

Tigger it is ignorant to think the only other chioce a cop has if you take the tasers away is to shoot someone.
It is also ignorant to think tasers will be taken away, but I do think the rules for their use needs to be spelled out in simple, small words because apparently some in LE can't understand bigger ones.

Again I state for all-

NO ONE has refuted this- no CERTFIED Instructor for non lethal detention/apprehension teaches it is ok to tase a pregnant woman in the neck.

Now if she has a death grip on the steering wheel a simple pressure point, and there are several available to the cop, has that death grip off faster than you can type it. (ask me how I know :shock: )

But that takes training, confidence not arrogance, a bit of psychical conditioning- fat boys are handicapped because they can't climb in and use their weight. ;)

I don't hate cops, just have no love for the punk-a** ones. Some in LE need to be finding other kinds of work.
 
I certainly don't care who does and doesn't like the cops. Some people don't like them simply because they disagree with certain laws and want to be disobedient.

obey obey obey. I'm sensing a trend here.
 
obey obey obey. I'm sensing a trend here.

“Obedience indeed is only the pitiful and cowardly egotism of him who thinks that he can do something better than reason” Percy Shelley
 
We're seeing more and more videos of police using excessive force on helpless suspects that they THINK are resisting, some resulting in permanent injury and death. The training on how to handle suspects should be more about how to reasonably subdue and control resistance than to use sheer brute force. Tasers are an extremely painful solution though effective in causing little lasting damage, they shouldn't be used on non violent resistance, unless as a last resort in certain potentially dangerous situations. Unlawful compliance can be ticketed heavily with other methods implemented such as a quick acting narcotic/anesthesia mist that turns the suspect to jelly.
 
We're seeing more and more videos of police using excessive force on helpless suspects that they THINK are resisting, some resulting in permanent injury and death. The training on how to handle suspects should be more about how to reasonably subdue and control resistance than to use sheer brute force. Tasers are an extremely painful solution though effective in causing little lasting damage, they shouldn't be used on non violent resistance, unless as a last resort in certain potentially dangerous situations. Unlawful compliance can be ticketed heavily with other methods implemented such as a quick acting narcotic/anesthesia mist that turns the suspect to jelly.
I somewhat agree, but in the instant that a situation escalates the thought processes change. Realistically when an officer issues a legal command it is best to follow it, of course if something is not a legal police action the situation changes but one must realize that an officer has many means at his disposal to subdue you.

That said, the cooler head almost always prevails in a heated situation and the woman in the OP certainly didn't keep control. If I were an LEO and someone was using aggressive words and actions and actively resisting I couldn't say what I would do, especially considering this woman was pregnant but I can say that I would tase before using other force, the reason being standard locks and takedowns could exert more force on the fetus, a police baton or mag light can cause severe trauma, and there is no telling if a reaction to OC could cause her to go into premature labor or endanger her pregnancy. These officers were in a true no-win situation created by the suspect. I do feel for both parties but understand that police officers must do what they can to maintain control of the situation.

I guess the musings by a few here that non-violent conflict resolution should be a larger part of police training and taught more thouroughly has merit, but in the instant it fails the most important thing is just restoring control. That said I have run into police officers who were masters of non-violent and non-aggressive enforcement who also had to use aggression against out of control perps in some heated situations, many times the person being detained has a choice of how the stop will go down.
 
Based on my experience as a policeman I know you are wrong.


Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.

My question to you was, "Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life."

You answer is below. Totally unresponsive and quite frankly, way out of any reality we were speaking about. Teleport?, Physics?

Based on my experience with physics, I know you cannot teleport. I mean, if you could be there to "protect" everyone, why are there murders? Why is there rape? Why is there theft? I mean, come on you can be right there at that time, yes? Or is it that it actually takes transfer of information first and foremost to alert the police and then there is a necessary time lag until they get there? Hmm? Maybe? Possibly? That or cops can break the laws of physics, and if so I'd like to know. How do you get around the whole physics thing?


I'm talking out of my ass

That is quite an accomplishment.... :thumbs:

I know this is off topic, but, I am in a Barbershop Quartet and we want to add a fifth person. My motto is: "If you can talk, you can sing" we need you and your wonderful talent.

I am taking the liberty of giving you a verse of "Danny Boy" hoping that you will join us. We wear lime green sports jackets with matching pants. In your case as you will be doing a solo, you need not wear the pants when performing.



Danny Boy

Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling.
From glen to glen and down the mountain side.
The summer's gone, and all the flowers dying.
'Tis you, 'tis you must go, and I must bide.

Here is the beautiful tune...performed by James Galway

 
You answer is below. Totally unresponsive and quite frankly, way out of any reality we were speaking about. Teleport?, Physics?

Not at all, it in fact speaks to the heart of the matter. If someone pulls a gun and I really need the cops, you cannot be there when I need you most. I can call you for clean up duty, report a crime. But rarely would you STOP the crime itself less you happened to be on site at the time the crime was committed. Information cannot be conveyed quickly enough and you cannot travel fast enough to make the scene in all cases. If the police were truly able to be there whenever one needed them, we wouldn't see as much crime as we do.

In the end, it's best to rely on yourself for your own protection. When you need the cops the most, they're 10 minutes away.

I know this is off topic, but, I am in a Barbershop Quartet and we want to add a fifth person. My motto is: "If you can talk, you can sing" we need you and your wonderful talent.

I am taking the liberty of giving you a verse of "Danny Boy" hoping that you will join us.

No thanks, I'm not gay.
 
I somewhat agree, but in the instant that a situation escalates the thought processes change. Realistically when an officer issues a legal command it is best to follow it, of course if something is not a legal police action the situation changes but one must realize that an officer has many means at his disposal to subdue you.

That said, the cooler head almost always prevails in a heated situation and the woman in the OP certainly didn't keep control. If I were an LEO and someone was using aggressive words and actions and actively resisting I couldn't say what I would do, especially considering this woman was pregnant but I can say that I would tase before using other force, the reason being standard locks and takedowns could exert more force on the fetus, a police baton or mag light can cause severe trauma, and there is no telling if a reaction to OC could cause her to go into premature labor or endanger her pregnancy. These officers were in a true no-win situation created by the suspect. I do feel for both parties but understand that police officers must do what they can to maintain control of the situation.

I guess the musings by a few here that non-violent conflict resolution should be a larger part of police training and taught more thouroughly has merit, but in the instant it fails the most important thing is just restoring control. That said I have run into police officers who were masters of non-violent and non-aggressive enforcement who also had to use aggression against out of control perps in some heated situations, many times the person being detained has a choice of how the stop will go down.

When 50,000+ volts flows thru the woman depending on contact area it can affect the fetus. I'm by no means though saying that a majority of LEO don't do well at a difficult job for low pay.

Funny thing is we tranquilize animals in an attempt to be humane why not a similar method for humans? When people have become non-compliant to peaceful requests or lawful commands we can assume they are not reasonable and acting like an animal. Sure there would still be injury and deaths as a result because it's simply not avoidable but unless the number were dramatically excessive it would be a more compassionate way to handle resistant suspects. Beating, pounding, bending, tazing, shooting and pepper spraying are not exactly the height of civility. A mist, spray, dart or other penetrable device to deliver a quick acting, potent knock down/out drug. Once they're down/out cuff and shackle. Make sure all officers are trained on resuscitation and have the proper equipment for emergency medical response. Cardio-conversion, O2 and narcan/epinephrine to revive.
 
This is a no-win for the cops. You can't just let her go. Using the tazer seems excessive. If you try to pull her from the car she will scream "police brutality". Seems the situation was clearly explained to herand she was given multiple opportunities to comply. So what should the cops do?

Remove her from the car with the minimum use of force required then "cuff and stuff" her. Charge her with "resisting" in addition to the speeding ticket.
 
lpast-
What I have seen of you in this thread is the typical combination of trite expressions, attempting to lecture civilians and dismissing people, me, who have some expertise on what it takes to handle pregnant women having a meltdown on the side of the road. I have 30 years of running with cops. Been buddies with several for all that time. Is how I got into Instructing and being the arrestee in training future LE. Oh the stories you cops tell during breaks in training... couple that with NTOA videos and my oh my some of the dumb things 'professional' LE do under stress/during a confrontation. The old dodge of "You weren't there" is rapidly running out with the increase of dash cams and mikes on cops. One of my cop buddies is the sheriff of the next county over, he fired a deputy for turning his mike off during a traffic stop.

Now about the trite everyone hates cops till you need one.

More to the point is everyone hates a punk cop, even when you need one. :)

moving on-

Tigger it is ignorant to think the only other chioce a cop has if you take the tasers away is to shoot someone.
It is also ignorant to think tasers will be taken away, but I do think the rules for their use needs to be spelled out in simple, small words because apparently some in LE can't understand bigger ones.

Again I state for all-

NO ONE has refuted this- no CERTFIED Instructor for non lethal detention/apprehension teaches it is ok to tase a pregnant woman in the neck.

Now if she has a death grip on the steering wheel a simple pressure point, and there are several available to the cop, has that death grip off faster than you can type it. (ask me how I know :shock: )

But that takes training, confidence not arrogance, a bit of psychical conditioning- fat boys are handicapped because they can't climb in and use their weight. ;)

I don't hate cops, just have no love for the punk-a** ones. Some in LE need to be finding other kinds of work.


Its quite apparent you have far less knowledge and experience as you try and play that you do....what you need to do before you lecture me...is take note of where all the real sarcasm and contriteness started and continued in this thread and I will always dismiss trolls and police haters....and if you really knew anything about the job police do...EVERYONE that needs us loves us as were saving their ass or helping them....they can go home and tell everyone how they hate us to make them happy and we dont give a chit....
You like many progressives have this thing that not only are you smarter than everyone else your a better cut of human...I got news for you...that opinion is reserved only for individuals like yourself...many others dont share it.
Just like gay threads where gays dont want to hear a single negative word about gays and what they want...Cop threads are the same...and trust this I dont mind being in the middle of both of them and state what I know and how I feel...see this is america...have a good day :)
 
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obey obey obey. I'm sensing a trend here.


If an officer is actually out of line, the best thing to do is to go along with him on the scene, then call a good lawyer and sue someone's ass off.

The latter may prove productive; disobedience/resistance at the scene rarely accomplishes anything and will usually take you somewhere you really don't want to go.

I had a problem with a Trooper one time. I let him have his way at the scene of the stop, then afterward I contacted my State AG. The matter was handled in short order and the young Trooper was told in no uncertain terms that he was WRONG and NOT to do that again.
 
If an officer is actually out of line, the best thing to do is to go along with him on the scene, then call a good lawyer and sue someone's ass off.

The latter may prove productive; disobedience/resistance at the scene rarely accomplishes anything and will usually take you somewhere you really don't want to go.

I had a problem with a Trooper one time. I let him have his way at the scene of the stop, then afterward I contacted my State AG. The matter was handled in short order and the young Trooper was told in no uncertain terms that he was WRONG and NOT to do that again.

Ive said since the begining of this thread that this problem arose from a BAD law....there is no need to have altercations over the mere signing of a summons...many jurisidictions have no such law...you write the summons hand it to them and everyone goes on their way.
The point of this incident that eludes all the cop haters...is that this woman was the one speeding...she was the one that kept refusing to sign the ticket and she was the one that refused to exit her vehicle....
 
When 50,000+ volts flows thru the woman depending on contact area it can affect the fetus. I'm by no means though saying that a majority of LEO don't do well at a difficult job for low pay.

Funny thing is we tranquilize animals in an attempt to be humane why not a similar method for humans? When people have become non-compliant to peaceful requests or lawful commands we can assume they are not reasonable and acting like an animal. Sure there would still be injury and deaths as a result because it's simply not avoidable but unless the number were dramatically excessive it would be a more compassionate way to handle resistant suspects. Beating, pounding, bending, tazing, shooting and pepper spraying are not exactly the height of civility. A mist, spray, dart or other penetrable device to deliver a quick acting, potent knock down/out drug. Once they're down/out cuff and shackle. Make sure all officers are trained on resuscitation and have the proper equipment for emergency medical response. Cardio-conversion, O2 and narcan/epinephrine to revive.
Here's the thing though. Tranquilizers can actually be more dangerous due to varying body chemistries and allergies, voltage effects pretty much everyone medically sound about the same way, I think tranqs would also have endangered the fetus. It's one of those things where unfortunately, at least IMO the woman put her own baby at risk by trying to be tougher than the detaining officer. I'm just of the opinion that this woman put the officer in a no-win situation.
 
This is a no-win for the cops. You can't just let her go. Using the tazer seems excessive. If you try to pull her from the car she will scream "police brutality". Seems the situation was clearly explained to herand she was given multiple opportunities to comply. So what should the cops do?

Remove her from the car with the minimum use of force required then "cuff and stuff" her. Charge her with "resisting" in addition to the speeding ticket.


The people in this thread that have been raging about the cops..are all intelligent enough to know this woman made her own bed...alot of the ranting and trolling is more meant for me than the incident....I dont know what was in her head...I hope it wasnt that Im pregnant and they wont arrest me...but she was being totally unreasonable and caused the incident to happen with her refusals...now once more Ill say that a bad law caused this incident to happen...there is no reason to have to force someone to sign a summons. The police did not write that law...they are sworn to enforce it...
 
Not at all, it in fact speaks to the heart of the matter. If someone pulls a gun and I really need the cops, you cannot be there when I need you most. I can call you for clean up duty, report a crime. But rarely would you STOP the crime itself less you happened to be on site at the time the crime was committed. Information cannot be conveyed quickly enough and you cannot travel fast enough to make the scene in all cases. If the police were truly able to be there whenever one needed them, we wouldn't see as much crime as we do.

In the end, it's best to rely on yourself for your own protection. When you need the cops the most, they're 10 minutes away.



No thanks, I'm not gay.

I am asking for your actual experience not the various hypothetical situations you pose as answers. Obviously you choose not to respond to the original question. As such you have provided the answer by your conduct and that answer is NO.



....and now you suggest I am gay because I sing...:shock: I also play the flute and several other instruments....:roll:
 
I am asking for your actual experience not the various hypothetical situations you pose as answers. Obviously you choose not to respond to the original question. As such you have provided the answer by your conduct and that answer is NO.

Personally, I have only been hindered by police, never helped. Yet I know people whom have been victims of crime and their only resort was to report the crime afterwards, the cops didn't poof to their location and help them out. As such, the original comment of "it is best to rely on yourself and not the police for your own protection. When you need cops the most, they are 10 minutes away" remains a true statement.

....and now you suggest I am gay because I sing...:shock: I also play the flute and several other instruments....:roll:

I was mostly just joking, but you're really not helping your case out here.
 
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